Embracing Feedback and Building Confidence with Marg Tranquille

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello there, lovely listeners, welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast, I'm Jenny Cole. I'm the owner and CEO of Positively Beaming and I'm delighted to be joined today by Marg Tranquille. Welcome, Marg.

Marg Tranquille: 1:16

Thank you, Jenny. Thanks for having me.

Jenny Cole: 1:26

Marg is currently the vice principal at a Catholic secondary college in the southern suburbs of Western Australia and she has a real passion for teaching and learning and gaining the best possible outcomes for students. When she's not working, she enjoys spending time with her friends, listening to podcasts, keeping fit and traveling. I know one of her favorite trips was a Christmas trip to New York and Washington. She also enjoys listening to audio books, and an interesting fact about Margarita is she actually loves the pizza that is her namesake. I hadn't ever made that connection. That's so funny, but maybe it's because I don't particularly like Margarita pizza. There you go. Marg, you're currently the vice principal, but I know that that's a relatively new role. Do you want to give people a bit of a snapshot of your leadership journey and some of the changes that have happened relatively recently?

Marg Tranquille: 2:11

Okay, so I've spent a very long time 30 plus years in Catholic education and I was really lucky early on in my career at my first school become a head of year and then I had some time off and had my two adult children, followed by some part-time work. I think that was really important for me because I came back and things in schools move really quickly and I spent probably close to seven or eight years really honing my craft and developing my teaching and learning my pedagogy. So that was a really, even though I'd gone back just into the classroom. It wasn't a leadership position. I think that was a really even though I'd gone back just into the classroom. It wasn't a leadership position. I think that was a really important part of my journey. Following that, I've had head of year roles and head of learning area roles and then I became really burnt out as a middle leader and I went and did some consulting for a year in the teaching and learning space and what that allowed me to do was step away from the frantic pace of schools and really focus on some learning. So that was a great year, but I was pretty keen to get back and be with kids again, because even after all this time, my greatest joy is being in the classroom, even though I don't spend much time in the classroom.

Marg Tranquille: 3:23

The current school I'm in this is my fifth year and I came across here as the deputy principal of middle school. So current school I mean this is my fifth year and I came across here as the deputy principal of middle school, so working with year sevens, eight, nines, overseeing the academics, the teaching and learning and the pastoral care. It's quite a tough school. It's quite diverse, there's many challenges, but with that there's also many opportunities. And then what happened last year is we had someone go on leave and the principal asked me to step across and become a restructured the deputy of teaching and learning, which is a real passion for me developing teachers, best practice in the classroom. Part way through that year I also stepped into the vice principal role for a term and then suddenly, at the end of last year, things changed. Now principal was seconded to another school, so the vice principal became the principal and now I'm looking down the barrel of being the vice principal for the next six months. So exciting times and moving more away from working with kids to working with staff.

Jenny Cole: 4:22

Yeah, and so what does the vice principal? What's their remit? What would a week look like in the life of a vice principal?

Marg Tranquille: 4:30

Okay, well, essentially you're running the school staffing, timetabling, leading teaching and learning I suppose the week looks like I meet with lots of our heads of learning area. Some of that time is just catch-ups and quite operational. Other times it's more strategic and it's working with their professional growth plans. Just being across lots of things, I actually work very closely with a number of our admin staff as well, so staffing is the most important. I suppose the day in the life of the vice-principal is back-to-back meetings largely, which I try to avoid, but inevitably I look for micro moments in between the meetings and I have a really good EA who manages the calendar. But yeah, working with staff and, I suppose, trying to get the best outcomes for staff so that we get the best outcomes for kids.

Jenny Cole: 5:20

Yeah, interesting, because I know that teaching and learning, both in the classroom, but as the head of teaching and learning was a real passion of yours and you got to do some sort of meaty projects rather than necessarily meeting with people day after day after day. I want to go back. You said you burnt out as a middle leader. Do you remember what burnt you out and how you recovered?

Marg Tranquille: 5:42

I would say you know, and I know middle leaders have heard this a lot probably. I heard it a lot when I was a mid they are the meat in the sandwich, they are the engine room. Nothing happens. You can have the most amazing senior leadership team, but if there's not good relationships and there's good clarity around roles and what the school improvement plan is, nothing happens in a school without the middle leaders. And I think as a middle leader it's quite challenging because you're still very much on the ground, you don't have a lot of time, so you feel what all the teachers feel and you're at the coalface and sometimes there's things that are coming from senior leadership that you don't possibly think is the best outcome for kids, or you might be completely aligned, but you've got to sell it because this is the direction the school's going towards.

Marg Tranquille: 6:31

I just think the demands of a middle leader are huge because there's a lot of administration, there's a bit of strategic as well and understanding, which is great because that develops you for when you take the next step but also the people management. So if you have a big team or difficult people within the team, it's really difficult to find the time and the space and the time to reflect and who to talk to to actually manage those people. So a whole combination, multifaceted. I suppose. Not that I had difficult teams, but they do drain you and I think you don't get time to think about it during the day because you haven't got any space. So sometimes you and I think you don't get time to think about it during the day, you haven't got any space, so sometimes you go home and you take that stuff home, but then you're back in the operational space.

Marg Tranquille: 7:12

So yeah, yeah, absolutely how did I overcome it, just get away for a while good advice that sometimes we just take a step away.

Marg Tranquille: 7:20

Yeah, yeah and so I don't think I knew I was burnt out. How did I know? I don't think I did know until I stepped away because I didn't think I knew I was burnt out. How did I know? I don't think I did know until I stepped away because I didn't have the space. And I think as teachers I think we're a bit addicted to the adrenaline. You know you have your holidays, your rest, you're in a really good space and then the minute you hit the school you go up and you function at that high level for 10 weeks and then we crash and burn each holidays and I think I don't know if you get a bit addicted to that lifestyle. So when I went into consulting, where it wasn't that pace, I was actually quite shocked, but it allowed me to realise that I was really burnt out and I needed to go. Gently with myself, I suppose.

Jenny Cole: 8:01

I think I don't know if we're addicted to that adrenaline. I think some people are. I explain to people who are outside of education that it's like running a project, it's like running a marathon. You start in week one and you're off, and then you work like a crazy person until week 10. And then, as you said, take a deep breath and do it all again for second term. So now, as a person who's doing the supporting of those middle leaders, what are you conscious of when you're having conversations with them?

Marg Tranquille: 8:35

I suppose my biggest learning is when supporting middle leaders is to listen, listen, listen. I think it's really important that they feel they have a voice and using a coaching approach, because I think, as a senior leader, you might want to go in and fix things, but only that middle leader really understands the context, because they're the ones in that engine room. I suppose the other thing which has been important is, yes, I'm an empathetic listener, yes, I use a coaching approach and, probably after meeting with people, particularly when they've got challenges, that they've got some possible actions leading the meeting, and that I am, though, very mindful, and I think and I always say it to the middle leaders too, because they have teachers do this to them. Don't take on other people's monkeys, we've all you know. So I don't take on the middle leader monkey.

Marg Tranquille: 9:24

If they want to pass a job over to me, that really needs to sit with them, but they're modeling that that they don't do it to themselves, because I think, sometimes, when people, when they first step into middle leadership or senior leadership, will be all things to everybody and you can't. So, I suppose, listening, using a coaching approach and sometimes, if the challenge is around, the actual middle leader, and I'm not saying it is, but being some feedback too, because I think feedback is the greatest gift. I think that's one of my biggest learnings If someone takes the time to give you feedback so you can grow. So I try and model that. So, yeah, don't take on the monkeys. And also feedback.

Jenny Cole: 10:05

Feedback is often uncomfortable in the moment. Are you aware of feedback that people have given you in your career that perhaps didn't sit so well in the beginning but that you eventually took on board?

Marg Tranquille: 10:16

Yes, and I think in seniorly, I would say the principal that's on secondment that I've worked with here has probably the way I've seen her grow all of the senior leaders here, I think is phenomenal. And she did give me some feedback. I think when I stepped into senior leadership I could be very stressed and even if it didn't show in my words, it showed on my face so and I was rushing around and that was some of the feedback that she gave me and what were the strategies I could use to respond rather than react. And I'm not saying I was being horrible to people, but it was very obvious. I was stressed because no one feels comfortable if someone up chain is rushing around, because it creates this sense of, oh, what's going on. Yeah, that feedback which I was like, yeah, but I am really busy.

Marg Tranquille: 11:09

Why, you know, but just some definite practices. I slow down my breathing, I walk slower, I chat to people more because you know what there's never enough hours in the day, and I've learned now that you do get things done and some things need to wait till tomorrow. So, yeah, but and I've also worked with some people, last year particularly I have someone in my team who went for a couple of jobs and did not receive feedback internally or from external sources really well, and working with that person helped me too. But I could sort of give my insights and be vulnerable in front of that team member to say, look, this is how I felt when I got this sort of feedback, but it's actually a gift and recognising it as a gift and it will take, you know, if you need to go away and lick your wounds and accept it, yeah, so I suppose I hope that answers the question, jenny.

Jenny Cole: 12:01

Oh, absolutely, and we only get better through feedback. Sometimes it feels wounding and sometimes it feels really personal, but if you see it as a gift and use it for growth, absolutely essential the feedback that you are stressed and it's impacting everybody else. It's a bit like a teacher the better regulated a teacher is, the more regulated their class is going to be. If you look busy and stressed, then your class is going to be busy and stressed as well.

Marg Tranquille: 12:31

Yeah, exactly.

Jenny Cole: 12:32

You've always struck me as a very organised person person and, as you've just said, schools can be very reactionary places how do? You stay focused on, what you need to stay focused on, and and how do you stay organized?

Marg Tranquille: 12:46

I suppose good time management. That's a really good question, jenny. When you're an organized person, that comes naturally. I suppose I try and stay ahead of the game. I'm always in that, which I think a lot of teachers are that future. So you know this is happening, I think, because lot of teachers are that future. So you know this is happening, I think, because it's part of who I am.

Marg Tranquille: 13:04

It's just something I've done for so long. It's hard to actually answer. However, what I've learned and I've got much better at is because the more people you work with, the more people you're relying on to get their piece of the puzzle. Moving and I love working in teams. You know that gives me great joy. But moving and I love working in teams, you know that gives me great joy. But what I've learned is just because it's the most important job on my agenda and I'm future focused. Two weeks ahead doesn't mean everyone else operates like that and actually learning to roll with the punches a bit more. So being organized is great, but not everyone's, you know everyone else has got, you know, so many balls up in the air and I suppose, learning to trust other people that they will get the job done and it's all going to work out.

Marg Tranquille: 13:45

Do your part of the puzzle and then don't harass them. Just wait for it to fall in place. I also come in early. I make a little list and I come in. I get to work early because what it allows me to do is make that list, have the coffee, look at my calendar, focus for the day and then go and catch up with people. If I come in and I've got to go straight into a meeting, that doesn't work for me. So, just having that little bit of space in the morning just to go through my day, know what I'm doing, what are the priorities and, like I said, I'm organized because I've got lists everywhere. Jenny, sometimes there's too many lists.

Jenny Cole: 14:21

Yes, indeed, there's no shortage of lists. How do you continue to develop yourself? I mean, you spend a lot of time developing others. How do you continue your own professional practice and professional learning? Look?

Marg Tranquille: 14:37

I think you learn off everyone. You don't just learn off other senior leaders or I have a really good network, so, of other deputies that I've worked with, who we friends, but we also have quite robust professional conversations, particularly around, you know, teaching and learning, pastoral care, things like that, and sometimes we problem solve. I think I learn something new, if it's not every day, it's definitely every week through the people I work with. I think my current principal developing us has been a big focus and I also think I learn from teachers. When I was in the teaching and learning role last year, sometimes going into an early career teacher's classroom and seeing the risks they take and what they do, I think, wow, that's new, that's amazing. So, yeah, I also I'm a member of, you know, the Australian Council of Educational Research and I probably don't read many books.

Marg Tranquille: 15:37

I don't feel I've got the headspace, but in terms of papers and some of the research that comes out, particularly like the latest one I've read is the one around engaged classrooms through effective classroom management and managing behaviour and linking it to good pedagogy and classroom routine. So, reading other deputies and I learn off everyone because everyone's got a different skill set and I just think that's how I probably continue to grow, because I've got an open mind about learning and there's incidental learning every day, and sometimes it's young teachers and sometimes it's other senior leaders, and sometimes it's your current principal or someone you might be talking to.

Jenny Cole: 16:16

Yeah, I love that. I was having a conversation with a colleague the other day recounting a senior principal in a very large multi-campus school and we'd been doing some coach training with the whole team and he happened to be partnered with one of the youngest and least experienced people on his staff and at the end of the coaching session he said that was the best coaching session he'd ever had, because that young teacher had nothing to do except to ask questions and to be curious. But what I loved about that was he learned something about himself in that process, and obviously that young leader did too. So you can learn off the junior people and these new teachers coming in. They've got some amazing skills. Talk to me a bit more about your networks. When and how do you meet with your deputy colleagues? What might that look like in a term?

Marg Tranquille: 17:07

Okay, so I suppose I've got two very good friends who are deputies One I used to be ahead of year with and I work at reasonable distance from where I live, so when we want to problem solve, often that's around the everyday things that are happening. Or how would you handle this or what's your process for this? I will actually call her or she will call me and we'll have like a half an hour 45 minute chat while I'm going home. I have another very good friend who's also a deputy and she works in the teaching and learning space and we, would you believe, walk our dogs together.

Marg Tranquille: 17:41

So I'm not always working.

Marg Tranquille: 17:43

A lot of what we talk about is social, but we have incidental conversations about often strategic things around teaching and learning. And then I suppose I'm part of the Catholic school deputy principal's exec, so we meet twice a term. So often we're talking about how we support other deputies in professional learning and things like that, but often there's incidental conversations there. Sometimes they're the best conversations, but I definitely would rely on those two deputies and obviously the team I work with here to troubleshoot. Or sometimes you just need to vent and think, oh, my goodness, this is what my day was like today. Blah, blah, blah. This was crazy. A bit of a safe place. But also I really value their input and their judgment and they have a different perspective.

Marg Tranquille: 19:55

So, yeah, that would probably look like it is largely probably incidental. It doesn't mean I'm not connected, I would say, through the deputies network. Anytime you go to any of the events or forums, I find there's a really good culture of sharing because often people will present and that opens the door. You think, wow, that's a great idea, that's something that aligns with our school improvement plan and that would be something I'd really like to reach out and people are good at sharing and wanting to develop each other and things like that.

Jenny Cole: 20:28

So yeah, Networks are so valuable. I mean, schools, essentially, are doing the same thing. Context might be different, but we're doing the same thing and not reinventing the wheel is so important. But then having someone to bounce something off, because otherwise your nose is down on the desk and you don't look up and think I wonder if there's a better way of doing this, or I wonder if someone else has got a better idea. So those incidental but also kind of formal networks so important. Talk to me about what's the best advice that you ever got as a leader, or what advice do you give to young and expiring leaders?

Marg Tranquille: 21:01

The leadership journey is not linear. A principal I had, probably seven or eight years ago, said that. And it's not linear and don't be afraid to take a risk to like. I was in a middle leader position and prior to getting this role and sort of was hoping to go from middle leadership straight to senior leadership and in the end I took a pay cut. I went from a permanent job to a contract and into a consulting role. I took a risk and paid off very quickly. That wasn't the intention, it just happened that the right job came up.

Marg Tranquille: 21:36

I also think that everything works out and you are, where you go is where you're meant to go. So if you're thinking that you want to move from middle leadership to senior or you're from teaching to middle leadership and you're an aspiring leader, take on the feedback. If you go for jobs and you don't get them, there's a reason that you're not meant to get that job. And in hindsight, every time I've applied for a job and it hasn't worked out, another door opens somewhere else, or another experience or something happens in my life and it mightn't have been the right fit at that time because I've got other things going on.

Marg Tranquille: 22:14

So I just think it's not linear and the right things unfold in the right way at the right time. And just be patient, it's not a race. I think I didn't step into senior leadership until I was really, really experienced, and I think that's helped because I had lots of things to draw on. When you step up and it's early, it's very, very challenging. We've got some very young teachers who've stepped into head of year roles here and I can see how that impacts them. So I suppose, yeah, just trust in the process, because you'll end up in the right spot.

Jenny Cole: 22:49

If that door's not your door, if it doesn't open Such brilliant advice because we often feel as a young person that we should be doing it faster or it's our time, and I should take up that opportunity because it's been put forward to me. But I think there is some wisdom in experience. Not, I think I know that there is some wisdom in experience. You seem to be a confident person. Have you always been confident or has that grown as you've developed?

Marg Tranquille: 23:15

Oh look, I think most of us, if not all of us, have the imposter syndrome. So I think I have been reasonably confident. Maybe I've grown in confidence being in senior leadership. Look, I still reflect and everyone second guesses and things like that. But yeah, I don't. That's a really tricky question, jenny. I've probably always been enthusiastic and a people person, because on the disc I'm largely an I, that's my dominant, and so I really get joy about engaging and talking with other people. So maybe that is where that helps my confidence. But yeah, probably I suppose I have been reasonably confident. But I suppose you become as a woman.

Marg Tranquille: 23:58

I'm going to be totally honest. You know, over time you just go, you know what I have got this, you know what I have got this. You know, I think about back to my 20s and 30s and I think, wow, I probably wasn't as confident. Now. We're now like no, this is what I think and I'm willing to stand up for instead of being silent. As much as listening is super, super important that, if it's going to impact outcomes for kids, I'm going to put it forward. I'm going to put it forward. I'm going to actually say, well, no, respectfully, I don't agree with that so yeah, yeah absolutely, and I think you're right Again.

Jenny Cole: 24:32

Just as our leadership journeys aren't linear and they're a progression, likewise our confidence can change according to the role that we're in or the stage of life that we're at or whatever. But it's nice when you get that grounded confidence that says I know what I'm talking about and I've got an opinion and I'm not afraid to share it. Yeah, You're the most organized disc I've ever met, because most of us are just a bit flaky, to be completely honest, I've got a bit of D in me too.

Jenny Cole: 25:01

Yeah, get stuff done. When you and I some years ago had a coaching relationship, quite often what you would get out of the coaching is I just want to talk through what I'm thinking about, and often it was a project. You were in the middle of designing a wellbeing strategy, I think, at one point, and then some teaching and learning stuff, and you've said something very similar about talking to your deputy friends and colleagues. Is that how you do your thinking? By running up past people talking out loud?

Marg Tranquille: 25:31

Think so, yes, a lot of it. If I'm planning a professional learning, I think there's a combination I talk it through and then I think it through, or I think it through and then I talk it through, because if I just do one without the other like I'll give you an example at the moment where I'm working on a professional learning experience for some of our educational assistants I always also, when I'm playing PL, go back to Simon Sinek. The why, the how and the what just frames my thinking. So I've spent probably a week thinking and putting something together, and then yesterday I was back, we started back at work. So I met with our current principal and I said look, I really just want to run this by you so that I get some feedback. Yeah, so I think I like to do both.

Marg Tranquille: 26:13

I also think, jenny, you're amazing in giving me clarity. The talking through gives me clarity about taking the strategic to the practical and particularly you supported me in those first couple of years in senior leadership and possibly we were all developing in the team. We're now within the team and that's a culture we have in our leadership team, I think do bounce ideas off each other, but, yeah, talking through, but also I do work alone and that thinking process, but I think the talking helps me refine or gives me that feedback oh, you're on the right track, or have you considered this and have you considered that to possibly get the best possible outcome for the project, or that you're leading, and things like that. But yeah, definitely I love bouncing, even when I was teaching. I love talking about things. That does help me talking things through.

Jenny Cole: 27:04

And I like that sometimes you think it through and then talk it through, Sometimes you talk it through and then think it through. But I think the key point there is having somebody that you trust to be able to not just go yeah, that's fine, or oh yeah, whatever you like, Marg, but actually question your thinking and question it so that you get clearer on what it is that you're trying to achieve or the strategies you've chosen.

Marg Tranquille: 27:28

Yeah, and I often choose, because we've done a lot of work here on the DISC profile and I think that's one of the most useful tools ever in terms of developing leadership and our middle leaders use it as well.

Marg Tranquille: 27:40

I often will choose like I'm the I and I can have a bit of D, but I am right out on the I and in our team we've got someone who's firmly embedded in the C, so they're brilliant for process, and we've got someone who's firmly embedded in the S and they're like, well, okay, what about this and what about that? And they're also big ideas people, so they might have you consider that so often I'll choose someone who doesn't have the same. If I go to another, I sometimes I just get the same. Yeah, that's great.

Jenny Cole: 28:11

Yeah, you're just going to get another idea. Yeah, exactly, so I think that really helps.

Jenny Cole: 28:18

Yeah, and you're right, your leadership team has really evolved, and I'm sure the school has in the time too, because it's a complex, challenging school that we, fair to say, was stuck in the dark ages, and so it's taken a lot of work and a lot of trust between the leadership team to do what needed to be done, to make some of those hard decisions and put some of those processes in place, plus run a school which is a complex job all on its own. Yeah, final thoughts, anything that we've not talked about, that you'd like to mention, anything that's come to mind as we've been talking, probably having a balance, because in a high pressure job, the things that I do.

Marg Tranquille: 28:52

one of the greatest things that I do now is now that I'm five years into the senior leadership I think I was pretty poor at doing it the first two years and I'd probably let Walt take over my life is setting boundaries and showing compassion to myself too. To go. It's okay not to work tonight. I know it's only a simple thing, but at a certain point when I'm not working at night because obviously there's certain things I might need to follow up One night a week, in the week, I go out with a friend and I don't work that night at all. That's it. Nothing's going to get done, but setting boundaries. So I turn off my notifications and I put my phone on silent and I put it in another room, right, and then if I want to go and check it for someone else, it's a social thing and someone's rung me or things like that, I think.

Marg Tranquille: 29:39

And also maintaining a balance of it's not all work, because I am someone who loves to exercise. If I don't exercise, I'm not going to be my best self at work. So I suppose it's really important, particularly in middle leadership, teaching senior leadership, just to have some balance. Remember that you're not the job, you're a person. You're no good to anyone if your cup is empty and often we leave school empty the kids have been full on. You know, staff have needed you and really they might have told you some things that are really really heavy. And just being able to go home and recharge, whatever that is, whether it's talking to friends, whether it's walking the dog, whether it's going for a run, talking whatever that would be something that has, because you've got to remember you're a person first and the role is secondary. It might bring you lots of purpose, which my job does, and it's only part of who you are.

Jenny Cole: 30:34

That's phenomenal advice. And the exercise part's so important because it helps burn off all of those stress hormones that we fill ourselves with during the day. And so, even though in the mornings you might be talking to a girlfriend about work, you said you know, it's not all about work, it's sometimes social or walking the dog, it's you're out in nature, having exercise. Boundary is so important and turning off your notifications If anyone's listening. Turn off your notifications at a certain time each day. The phone does it automatically.

Jenny Cole: 31:05

You don't even have to think about it, and then you're not distracted as you're trying to make dinner or do all those other things. Yeah.

Marg Tranquille: 31:12

Marg, it has been delightful as always.

Jenny Cole: 31:15

Your wisdom is very valued by me and, I'm sure, by the people who are listening. So thank you very much for joining us and I just need to say Marg's only had three hours sleep because she's just come back from a holiday, and imagine what she could do when she has 12 hours sleep. Thank you so much for your time.

Marg Tranquille: 31:33

Thank you, thanks very much for having me.

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