Mastering Interviews Part One with Jenny Cole

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm Jenny Cole, and I'm thrilled that you could join us here today. Over the past 15 years, I have worked predominantly in the space of leadership development, so coaching leadership, aspiring leaders. I've written women in leadership programs and I've had a lot of coaching clients who are transitioning from classroom into leadership roles or applying for more senior leadership roles or just ready for a move, and so it's not unusual and it's not to be unexpected that I have spent an awful lot of time helping people perfect and manage interviews how to become confident at interviews, what to write, what to say, how to prepare and so I've got a couple of episodes that I am going to share with you about some of the wisdom that I've accumulated over the years about how to master this often very challenging part of career development, and that is how to get good at interviews. To get good at interviews Now I'm going to say straight up front that I am not an HR expert. I have been on a number of panels, but some of you have probably been on more selection panels than I have. But I know what people come to me, what the issues are that people come to me with, and I know what successful people do. So we're going to unpack some of what that is to be successful at interview Before we even start. I want to share with you that there is something that is quietly shaping the outcome of any interview process that you are probably largely unaware of, and that is unconscious bias. We're going to unpack it shortly, what it is, how to overcome it and why it is the power of your networks that is going to make you successful in moving, transitioning from one role to the next. Not just your networks, but your sponsors, and not necessarily your referees. It is your sponsors who are your strongest interview asset, and if you've ever walked out of an interview wondering what more you could have done, then this episode and the next one are exactly for you.

Jenny Cole: 3:49

So in government schools we have a merit selection process. This is a process that is supposed to have equity, to be free from bias and nepotism. It's the notion that we have standard selection criteria and we rate people equally across that selection criteria. So selection panels are supposed to get together, have discussions about what it is that they find, what they're looking for in the successful candidate, how they're going to rate those candidates. They're going to assess the written application against that matrix and then do exactly the same at interview, and so what is supposed to be a very fair process, though, often feels highly unfair to some applicants, and I'm going to dive into a little bit about what that might be in a moment and how to overcome it. If you're in a non-government school, your process is going to be slightly different, but I think the assumptions are going to be the same, and that is that you are going to be treated fairly and equally and there's not going to be some hidden agenda about what people are looking for, and that you'll be rated against much the same criteria as the other applicants.

Jenny Cole: 5:20

But interview panels are made up of human beings, and human beings are fundamentally flawed because, even with the best of intentions and being very aware, they will cover a whole lot of unconscious bias that shape how they perceive the candidates, both in written form but also those in front of them. And these biases are unintentional, but they do influence the way that decisions are made, and in subtle ways. And the first and most obvious if you have ever looked at a job and thought that is written for the incumbent, or you've got to the interview at the end of the interview and the panel has chosen the person who is already acting in the role. That is probably due to something called affinity bias, which where we prefer candidates who share similar backgrounds. So if you have already worked with that person, if you already know their style and how they operate, you are far more likely to be drawn to them. But it's not just the people that we know, it's often the people that other people know that we know. So if you've got a referee for a candidate who you're very familiar with, you are more likely to take their opinion seriously and give it more weight. But we prefer candidates that communicate in ways that are similar to us. So that often means we choose people who are like us. We like to choose people who have similar interests. So if somebody's got a real interest in students with disabilities or they've got a real interest in structured literacy, you're going to find those people more appealing than somebody else who perhaps thinks slightly differently to you.

Jenny Cole: 7:22

And then we have confirmation bias, which is when we are searching for evidence that confirms our initial impressions. So we all know that we make very quick assumptions. You know the three second rule. In the first three seconds we're going to decide what it is that we think and believe about the person, even if we're looking for evidence to the contrary. In fact, what our brain is doing is trying to confirm what it is that we believe. And again, if you've ever been on a selection panel where you have rated somebody very, very low because you haven't found anything in their application or in their interview that fills you with confidence and joy, and then one of your other panellists has rated them really high, essentially what you have done is both of you have looked for evidence that has confirmed your bias one way or another. So you may have heard them say something that you didn't particularly agree with, and so then you went about trying to find ways that you could also disagree with them.

Jenny Cole: 8:30

Then there is gender bias, and we interpret assertiveness really differently based on gender. So assertive men are seen as leaders, whereas assertive women may be labelled as labeled as aggressive or bossy. There has been research into job applications that were written that were very competent for the job for which they were written, for the skills and the attributes were all there, the only difference being one application had a male name on it and another one had a female. We are far more likely to rate the male more highly in a variety of ways. We'll come back to affinity bias in a moment, because it is the exact reason why you need to have networks and sponsors who are on your team to put you forward.

Jenny Cole: 9:36

So how to overcome some of the bias at an interview is just name the value that you bring, clearly and confidently. What can you do? What do you bring? What do you know, and then use structured stories that illustrate your impact. Know and then use structured stories that illustrate your impact. So we know about Sayo, but there's Star and the Parlour framework, essentially versions of the same thing, and this structure helps the people on the panel to attach what you're saying to a framework.

Jenny Cole: 10:05

Which is always really useful and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment, but during the interview and also in the application itself, is mirroring the language that is in the advertisement or mirroring the language of the school's business plan, because the interviewers are looking for similarity. They want to know how you're the same as them, because that makes you more predictable, more agreeable, more attractive, and so using the language that they already use. So you might call a particular strategy one thing, but you notice that the school calls it something different. So you might call it pastoral care or student services, but you'll notice that the school calls it wellbeing and they refer to their wellbeing framework. So giving back to the panel some of the words that you have noticed in the advertisement or in the school's documents so important but also mirroring what people are saying to you in the interview is really important. So not only mirroring body language so that you perhaps tilt your head to the side, looking like you're listening listening to people repeating what you've heard so it's clear that you have understood them but also using the language that they are using in their questions back to you, if appropriate. You might not find that in a merit selection interview, but in a more free-flowing interview you want to be using the language and the structures that have been mirrored to you, and don't forget to ask clarifying questions to demonstrate your curiosity and alignment with what it is that they're doing. And so this might be important in your final question when the panel says is there anything that you want to add? It's often a really good opportunity to show how curious and aligned you are with what the school is already doing.

Jenny Cole: 12:32

In the next episode I'm going to talk about some strategies that, some more specific strategies that you can use generally in an interview. The ones that I've just talked about are about how to overcome bias, and I'm going to share a bit more about that with you in just a moment. But in the next episode I'm going to give you interview tips more generally. This is what I want you to consider way before you even start applying for roles, if humanly possible, and that is the power of networks, both formal and informal and informal. So if one of the bias that we come across in a selection process is the affinity bias we choose people who are like us and that we know then networks are our way of becoming part of the in crowd, and I know that it feels a bit manipulative, but go with me.

Jenny Cole: 13:38

This is where networking becomes more than just professional development. It becomes a strategic tool. And I want to be really, really clear. I'm not talking networking standing up at the end of a conference with a glass of wine and your name tag on it, making small talk with people you don't know. That is horrible for all of us. Almost none of us enjoy that.

Jenny Cole: 14:03

I'm talking about building networks of practice and people around you that are like you that you can leverage off if you need to. So formal networks could be cross-school collaborations. So if you're part of a school network or in a diocese or somewhere where nearby schools might interact, it's about making sure that you're on those committees or focus groups. It could be making sure that you stay connected to anybody who you've done professional learning with leadership programs or coaching groups. It is also things like professional associations, so the Level 3 Teacher Association or the Principals Association. Many of those will have affiliate or aspirant groups that you can be a part of Professional associations like the Science Teachers Association or anything particular in your field. That you can join and be a part of. Things like ACEL, the Australian Council of Educational Leaders, and there's a variety of those where you can be a member and listen and hear but also contribute.

Jenny Cole: 15:25

These days I also include social media networks. Social media networks I believe that you should be on LinkedIn. In the old days it was probably Twitter X, where you could have conversations about practice with other very clever humans and you could get your voice known out there as somebody who contributed to the discussions around whatever was going on with literacy or behaviour management or education more generally. Twitter became nasty and now I think that the really good quality networking happens on LinkedIn. So if you don't have a LinkedIn profile, so if you don't have a LinkedIn profile, if you're not looking at and using LinkedIn regularly, I suggest that you do so. Likewise and I'll come back to LinkedIn in a moment.

Jenny Cole: 16:23

Likewise, I believe that you should be in the Facebook groups that make most sense for you to be in. So if you're a rural and remote teacher, there are rural and remote Facebook groups. There's early childhood Facebook groups, there's, I'm sure, there's humanities Facebook groups. But just like LinkedIn, this is what you want. To be on those groups. You want to be helpful, to be helpful. The reason you are there is to serve to add to the discourse and to be useful. So if somebody says, does anyone have a copy of a risk management plan for an XYZ? And you've got one, that's when you send them a DM and you say, sure, I've got one of those, not sure if it's useful to you. We used it in this context or if somebody is writing in those groups and asking for advice about particular things, then offer your advice. You don't have to be the expert. You could just say, in my school we group kids like this for this purpose and it seems to be working.

Jenny Cole: 18:36

So these formal networks and I'm including social media in formal networks enhance your visibility. People see your name, they see that you've contributed and if you are also sharing what you're doing in your own posts, you don't have to do that. You can just comment and like and join in on other people's posts. But if you are then also sharing in your own posts, everybody else is seeing you and those decision makers who might be on your panel might have noticed you in those groups and then you are more familiar with them and they are familiar with you before you get to interview. I'm pretty sure you don't believe me that LinkedIn and Facebook are ways that you can get your reputation out there. And let's just be clear that's what it is that you're doing, particularly if you are aspiring. You want to get your reputation out there before you get to interview, because if you've got two people in front of you as a panel and they are equally matched, and one you have never heard of before and the other person the only interaction you've had is you've noticed that they've posted some pretty useful things in a Facebook group. You are going to choose the person you feel like you know. So formal networks could be professional associations, could be committees and steering groups could be conference organising committees.

Jenny Cole: 20:24

But don't underestimate the power of social media. Linkedin, I absolutely agree, has become a bit how shall I put this? People out there who are a bit wanky and a bit self-indulgent, self-promoting. There are some people out there who are trying really hard to prove their reputation and most people can see straight through them. There are people like me who are running a business and I need to be on things like LinkedIn a lot, but there are plenty of good operators just doing good things and sharing good practice. So I don't want you to get put off. Just make sure you connect with as many people as you can and the right kind of people, particularly if you're aspiring kind of people, particularly if you're aspiring. There are informal networks and they are probably things like professional friendships.

Jenny Cole: 21:29

So keeping tabs on some of the principals, deputies, colleagues that you've worked with in the past and just being active in their communities and digital spaces, and in that I would probably include things like Instagram and TikTok. Instagram and TikTok aren't necessarily going to build your reputation, but they are ways that you might choose, in addition to Facebook or LinkedIn, to stay abreast of your networks. But you might just have mentors, previous mentors, you might have old teachers, you might have anybody where you're building trust and familiarity and a positive reputation. When people know you, they often see your strengths more readily and they're able to describe them, and these days, you do not have to know somebody in person, you don't need to have known them in real life, and so the more people who know you, who know your reputation, who you've shared and been useful and supportive of this, can counteract the unconscious bias in your favour. So build your network. You need it. Engage in dialogue, offer value, stay visible, because often interviews are not just about selection, they're about recognition and we choose people we recognize. So we all understand the purpose of a mentor.

Jenny Cole: 23:06

I've just talked about the importance of a network and to be networking and networked well before you're starting to apply for a job, but I'm going to talk about a sponsor and I talk about this a lot. Many of you are beavering away quietly, diligently, phenomenally, in your school and you're hoping that someone will notice, and sometimes the only people who notice are your leadership team. However, they need you to stay because if you are so phenomenal and you're taking on a lot of extra responsibilities, they have a vested interest in making sure you don't leave. Now that might sound a bit bit negative, but it is the truth. I have seen a lot of people fail to get to interview, fail to win the job, because their referee generally their line manager is not their sponsor. Their referee is somebody who will respond when called. Can you give a referee report for this person? Yes, and they will say enough, but they won't sell you, and the reason why they won't sell you is because they need you on their team. So if you're trapped, if you've managed to get to interview 13 times and you've not bombed out at interview but you've not won the position or you've become second or third chances are it's your referee.

Jenny Cole: 24:55

That is the problem, and you don't need a new referee, because they're often really hard to find because they are technically your line manager or somebody that you've worked under. What you need is a sponsor. So a referee responds when called and a sponsor speaks up when you're not in the room. They are senior leaders or influential voices who advocate for you. They put your name forward and they actively champion your potential, and this can make a real difference between being considered and being chosen.

Jenny Cole: 25:30

Women in particular will often hesitate to self-promote. We're happy to let our work do the speaking for us, or we're waiting to be tapped on the shoulder. But in leadership, you often need to make the opportunity rather than wait for it. So if you're not ready or you find it difficult to boldly speak about your own achievements, find someone who will seek out those people who see your potential and ask for their advocacy and, when the moment comes, be ready to own your own story. So earlier, when I talked about networks, when I talked about joining professional associations, when I talked about perhaps joining the union or steering committees or being involved in research at a university level, whatever it is, one of the reasons you're doing this is to find people outside your own school and potentially outside your own organisation, who are higher up the chat ladder than you, who might be able to look around and find opportunities that you would not normally be given.

Jenny Cole: 26:47

So a sponsor is on the lookout for ways that they can promote you, so they might know of a reference group that's been formed in early childhood and they might recommend you and say oh, speak to Wendy, she's brilliant. And you, when they ask you to be on the reference committee, your job is to say yes so that you get in front of a whole lot of other people who are potentially decision makers, or if they need someone to be on a selection panel you've never been on a selection panel before say yes so that you're now in the room with two or three other leaders who might have an opportunity to see you and know you and therefore put you forward, because confidence isn't about waiting to be discovered. It's about taking up space and letting others see what you do, and I know this doesn't come naturally, but I will often say to people there are lots of potential sponsors in your world. So the women who do my Launching into Leadership course and we do a whole section on building your brand and ensuring your reputation, and we look at networks and sponsors and mentors in a great deal more depth.

Jenny Cole: 27:56

I will often say link with me on LinkedIn and stay in touch with me, because I will be your best sponsor, because I go into hundreds of schools and I have hundreds of conversations every week with people who are potentially looking for people just like you, and it's not smarmy. If we've got a relationship and you enjoyed what I talked about in my various leadership programs and you know we've spent often many hours together then why wouldn't you actively build a relationship with me that might one day put your name forward in some forum that you've never seen and it's something that I take a great deal of joy in doing and that's putting other people forward for for being a sponsor, because I had people sponsor me. I have people talk about me, give me testimonials, talk up my business, and so I think it's only fair that I do that to other people as well. So seek out people, and they are already in your orbit. So if you already use your department's leadership centre whatever you might call that or you access the central office or the district office of your system, then people in there are quite often in positions where they see a lot more widely than you do in your school, and that's the place where you might find a sponsor or a mentor, and it is as simple as reaching out and saying hi, I'm Wendy and I'm really looking forward to more leadership opportunities. I'd love to have a chat to you about what my aspirations are or if there is anything that you see that you feel that I would be suitable for. Please put my name forward Along those lines. It's a simple ask and the worst they can say is no, but I've never heard anybody say no. Occasionally I will help people turn down mentoring opportunities because there's a lot more time involved in those, but very rarely do people turn down the opportunity to sponsor a good person.

Jenny Cole: 30:25

So, as you prepare for your next leadership leap, ask yourself who is speaking your name in rooms that you've not even entered yet. Does the panel know you in some shape or form before you even get to interview? Are you linked with someone on LinkedIn? Are they in a Facebook group that you're a member of? Do they know your current principal or deputy? So, have you had the opportunity to meet them in some fashion, or at least talk about them?

Jenny Cole: 31:04

So important. We choose on affinity. Do we know that person? Do we share a background? Do we share interests? Do we have people in common? Do we have common communication styles? And then we actively seek bias to confirm what we already believe. And so build your networks, find a sponsor, make sure that you have ways of perhaps addressing bias through making sure that you're using similar language and so forth, language and so forth, and just be clear about overcoming the bias, because it starts with awareness. But thriving in interviews comes from connections, storytelling and strategy, and in our next episode, I'm going to talk about ways you can be better prepared for interviews, and it's not what you think so. So thank you for joining me today on Positively Leading. If this episode sparked some new thinking for you, I would love to hear about it. Until next time, keep leading with intention and don't wait for the invitation. You belong in the room. Go get it.

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