Living Your Endless Summer Life Strategy with Dr Pete Stebbins

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Welcome back to Positively Leading the Summer Series with Dr Pete Stebbins. This is Episode 4 and in the last three episodes we've looked at the two big reasons why school leaders are struggling with their mental health, and this time we're going to get a little bit more strategic and look at life strategy and how this process and framework can perhaps help leaders to dig themselves out of that pit. So welcome back, pete.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 1:30

Hey, thanks for having me again.

Jenny Cole: 1:33

Okay, so you wrote this book 10 years ago and it's called the Living your Endless Summer Life Strategy. Living your Ideal Life, whatever that might be. Tell us how you came to write this book for you personally.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 1:49

Yeah, thank you. So well, 10 years ago. As per today, you know that's 2014. And one of the things that had guided me, so I was 40, I'm 50 this year, so 10 years ago one of the things I wanted to do was I remarried at 20 at that age, and I'd been divorced before that and a solo parent of two now adult daughters, and I also in 2014, I'd reached a point where the big company I started from scratch and grew all the way up and moved on.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 2:17

I was no longer a part of that company, and so I was sitting there trying to pull together what I thought were the most important messages in life to share.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 2:25

This is a clinical psychologist, and one of those messages was around resilience, my PhD, sorts of interesting things about why people do endure and don't.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 2:34

But the other one was about this idea of life strategy and being intentional and again, what we'll get into today, some of the nuances of how this actually works and does it really work. And so, yeah, life strategy was sort of something that I got exposed to in my late 20s and took it all very seriously and then had so much benefit from it, so I thought, oh, look, if there was two great gifts I could give the world. One would be some of those nuances around resilience and burnout stuff, but the other would be to share, in an accessible way, the process of setting your life strategy. And the endless summer is just a big, giant metaphor, if you like. If you're a surfer, you'd know that movie, and the idea here is to follow the summer around the world, always surfing waves through the summer seasons as the world spins, and the metaphor there, of course, is basically just having the best life all the time, every time.

Jenny Cole: 3:22

And that just the best life all the time just feels sometimes intimidating and sometimes sort of unattainable, and so it's like, oh, I don't even, that's not possible, I'm going to give up. I don't even know how to do that, but when I read through your book it's a little bit attacking the elephant one bite at a time and having a bit of a process around. That which I particularly loved, and what I also loved, was that you started with a bit of a stop take about how things are going and also started with the notion that first you've got to decide that something needs to be different or something needs to happen, or that you need to actually commit to this endless summer. Do you want to talk about that part of the book, the process, the stop take? Yeah, that's cool.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 4:04

Yeah, yeah and this links on nicely in the series We've been wrestling with till now the ripping the Band-Aid off. We've been having a deep look clinically about why we burn out in the first couple of episodes and we've been addressing, I guess, this sense that people don't feel worthy or unbelonging and so therefore they're rescuing and people-pleasing. They're caught on this treadmill just to kind of get level with the world because of deep childhood stuff or whatever, and then, at an equally problematic but perhaps more superficial level, context-dependent memory, the fact is people just doing what's in front of them all the time. So the book begins with this idea of decision, and to decide in Latin means to cut it off. Make a cut, yeah, decimate if you know that word, yeah.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 4:44

So to decide. And that becomes really important as we in education talk about intentionality. We're talking about cutting something off. Yeah, we're talking about putting our phone away so we can't even see it, and then applying ourselves to this or whatever. So the opening line in this is to begin. You must first decide, and that is, you have to decide to put in the work, to put in the effort to suspend your disbelief that this endless summer is for the billionaires or whatever. No, no, no, no, no, no. The message is this is for everyone, all the time, everywhere, and there's no point going any further till you'll suspend your disbelief or accept in good faith. You're going to now as if you could. You're going to give this thing a go. You're going to turn the pages and not knock yourself out of the park or decide you're not worthy. You're going to stick with this and have a go. So remember decide is to cut off. We're cutting off the option that this is not for you. You're saying I accept the fact, this is for me, and here I go.

Jenny Cole: 5:39

And I like the notion that you talk about. The first reason is that you've got to take full responsibility for your life, because it's very easy to say, oh, I can't do that because my boss, or I can't do that because my kids or I can't. But let's take radical responsibility and say, maybe I can, maybe this is possible.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 5:57

Well, and the other quote we use in that is there's never a right time in life, there's only time.

Jenny Cole: 6:02

Yeah, start now. And that's that other quote about if you start in five years, you'll be five years ahead of yourself than if you didn't start. So where do we start? What is the first thing to do?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 6:13

So the first thing to do we'll have that link to the electronic copy of the book. We give that away. People buy the physical one, but you can always just grab the electronic for free. The first thing we do is a stock take, and so you start by looking at those four life quadrants. People say, pete, why did you pick those four? Work, play, family and friends and relationship.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 6:31

And of course there's a lot more other ways you can categorise all the different things in people's lives. But that's just a practical starting point. And you look at each area and you list off well, what am I doing, what's good about that? And that helps you see whether you're under or overloaded with activity. And then you rate am I satisfied with what's going on here as well? So it's a bit of a brainstorm dump list and the book's got a nice little table you can literally scribble in as you go. And then we circle hey, how is this working for me or not? And there's two really important questions because, for example, if we think about work for a school leader, they'll be able to fill up that list really quickly about all the things they're doing, and so that's fine, they're nice and full. But then the next question says is this okay for me? Am I too deep into this? Am I just right, or is this I'm not engaging me enough? And so in that case they'll properly say if they're stressed, they'll be saying it's over the top, it's too much.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 7:28

We contrast that with, say, the play of the four quadrants. So just head around and think of these four areas of their lives, and here we have a different thing where they may not actually have much to write down in what play looks like for them, and then they might also circle. Well, there's just not enough of that going on in my life. And if we pause on play for a minute, what's interesting about that is the solution, if you like, as we get later on into the book is not just to have more cool stuff to do or try stuff out till you find stuff you like. It's also equally thinking about the level of enjoyment it brings. So that's the nuance, if you like. Is that what we do? And then how satisfied we are with it? And we take what we do and how satisfied those two completely separate questions, and then we just start moving around those four quadrants.

Jenny Cole: 8:13

Yeah, and there are some leaders, I'm sure and I found that I was probably in this that I thought my work was play. I thought that it was where I got my enjoyment, because it was the only thing I was doing, and I'm an optimist, I could find enjoyment in everything. But then I realized there was no play or the things that gave me enjoyment, like catching up with friends or going for a walk on the beach. I just wasn't doing that anymore, and so the balance was out, to use that crude term. And so when you write it all down on a life map like this, you can see the things that are missing, but also, as you say, the satisfaction. You go, yeah, I'm satisfied with work. And then you look at play and you think, yeah, satisfied with work, but there is no play.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 8:58

And you're raising a really good point In a life strategy endless summer, having a great time all the time idea. Obviously, we still have our four emotions weaving through our lives, but we're supposed to find joy or satisfaction in all four areas. Yeah, and it's possible to find joy and satisfaction in all areas. But I'm curious now if you're happy to so. Let me put you on the spot. When you were a principal, that is what were some of the key things at work.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 9:25

Let's just spend a minute or two going through the four pretty quickly. So the key things you like to do in the work area of your life. Back when you were a principal top of mind, what would you say?

Jenny Cole: 9:35

Oh, the relationship stuff, so building relationships with my teachers, watching them, so all about ideas and new things. So watching them try something new, cheerleading them, so running meetings, doing professional learning, love all of that stuff.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 9:51

And then if we ask the current status question so page 37 of the little book, we say okay, there's your long list of cool stuff, or a short list. The next question says I get to do these things either too much or all the way down to not enough. When in the middle, just right. So back when you were a principal, what would you have said about that? I get to do those things enough, too much or not enough.

Jenny Cole: 10:10

Oh, not enough.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 10:12

No, ah, the role itself was busy.

Jenny Cole: 10:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the other things, the administrivia, filling in paperwork, answering stupid emails that was what took most of the time.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 10:25

Right, and so again, hopefully listeners are following this If you've decided what you love the most about the job and then you've gone to the second part, which is inside the job, I'm not doing enough of it. We'll come to it in a minute, but you're already setting yourself up for the appreciative inquiry question, which is the next part of the life strategy thing, which is, how do I then shift the balance of that? But remember, for what we're doing here summer, we can't just do work and leave it at that. We have to also look at play. So let me hit you up. What do you like to do? Play? You talked about walks on the beach. Your dog is amazing, spending time with your animals and any other things come to mind for play.

Jenny Cole: 11:01

So the apps going to see a play or a movie or just those sorts of things with friends, which is probably the relationship side, but yeah yeah, and they all merge together.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 11:11

Yeah, yeah, all right. And so again, if we're on page 35 of the book, the questions here says I get to do these things not enough or too much not enough back, when you were principals yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jenny Cole: 11:24

Not enough, or they were a chore to do because I didn't have enough time. So instead of walking my dog as a joy, it was another thing on my to-do list.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 11:34

What a great insight, terrific, and so I'm conscious of our time. But then we do the same thing around relationship and what's really interesting here. Obviously people can be in a relationship or they can be single. But if they're single, for example, it draws them in to think about intimacy, about deeper connections with friends, not necessarily in that relationship sense, but they still start to articulate what they desire for the future, if they're finding a mate, shall we say, or if in the past something wasn't right. Doing those same set of reflections there works. And of course, it's pretty obvious for everyone listening, the same set of reflections with family and friends.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 12:08

And when I did family and friends, I had all these ideas like fantasies about these amazing friends that I didn't actually have and these amazing parties, these amazing I don't know camping trips we all did, or this amazing island we were allegedly all on. And it's really interesting, if you'll allow yourself to sort of be in your own space and appreciative inquiry, it really starts to plant seeds. And I love how you just said, ben, walking your dog. You can do that slowly and with your chest out and your heart, feeling the sun of warmth on the earth and the joy of what it is to be a human alive, or you can be like jamming it in and a little frustrated because, yeah, it's not what you want it to be.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 12:46

So the first section of life strategy is stop, take. Start with understanding who you are Properly. Think through all four areas because, as we'll see in a minute, it's not so much trying to fix work, shall we say, for principles that will resolve their burnout. It's usually starting to diminish all of that altogether and actually start expanding a bunch of other cool things. That actually is the secret, but that's not intuitively obvious for people when they are struggling.

Jenny Cole: 13:16

No, and I like the fact that you split up relationships from work and family because they are fundamentally different. You can have lots of relationships with the people at work and the postman, but they're not necessarily intimate relationships, and then you've also got your family. So I think it's really useful that you divide those up, and I know for many possibly the same for men, but a lot of female leaders that I work with their family is no longer joyful because they are a job to do. At the end of the day, we go home and we do the job of family, and now we're coming up to Christmas and we've got to do the work of Christmas. It doesn't feel, as you said, expansive and it just feels like more.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 13:59

That's right. And in any of this it's always the two questions One, what exactly is it? And then, have I got enough or too much? And we use this again in those who know my broader work in organizations. We talk about the Goldilocks zone, if you like, about just right amount and because there's just as much danger with having too much of something than not enough.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 14:19

But if I could go back to what you're saying about relationship, that's really important too, because, again, getting deep and meaningful in this session, spending time thinking about love, intimacy not necessarily sexuality and stuff like that not necessarily, although there's a blur there, obviously but getting people to pause and think about intimacy and love and self-love by pausing on that particular quadrant. There's no way of avoiding it. They need to go there. And we talked in the start of this whole series about belonging and childhoods and trying to earn your place in life when you really already have it.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 14:55

And so the other thing I like in the stock take really quickly is when we're really thinking about relationship, be that as a single person right now, reflecting on past and future, or in one. Just properly anchoring to that makes us reconnect with the idea of languages of love. Or, you know, are we having enough time together, or gifts, or whatever it is? But in doing so, there's one next layer, which is self-love. Or am I still in that work harder, try to work your way to heaven, so to speak. And so I really like the four quadrants, like you just pointed out, because each one of them is doing something different.

Jenny Cole: 15:26

The four quadrants like you just pointed out, because each one of them is doing something different, at the total risk of oversharing. I do remember the psychologist that I saw after I had my little nervous breakdown, spiritual awakening, and in the first, maybe second session they said right next time we're going to talk about intimacy. And I went oh no, we're not. Thank you very much Going there, thank you, thank you bye. Because I was just after years of working myself to heaven, that was just a part of me that I had cut off completely and it was as much the self-love as anything else. But I often think back on that and I think, oh dear, now I know what he meant, but bless him, he shouldn't have probably said it exactly the way he did.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 16:05

and everybody who reads the book will see we don't actually, in the front end we talk about belonging, but once we're off on life strategy we give that a light touch. But again, how can you going through where we're up to so far in this session, I mean, if you don't decide that you're worthy, even if you have to say, hey, at one level, I don't. It really is like fantasy world. I don't get this. I feel almost like I want to ridicule Pete with this idea of his endless summer. I think he's telling the truth in his book, which I am, by the way, all the examples I use that I have done are real. But even then you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. All I want you to do is just park that disbelief. It's still part of you. You don't have to like sort of divorce yourself from your skepticism, but you have to park it so that you'll at least pretend it's possible for you. And you have to even pretend.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 18:10

Sometimes we get people to with the self-love idea or intimacy. They have to pretend that they're worthy, they have to pretend that they're already enough, they have to pretend that they've got just as much right to an amazing life than others. And whatever people need, it's a great way that they can learn to say, hey, I can't go there right now, but on the other hand, I can pretend to go there. Correct, and I can't go there right now, but on the other hand, I can pretend to go there Correct, and I can pretend to go there right.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 18:32

I can be an actor, I can just make it up and I'm saying great, if you start making it up, you are one step closer.

Jenny Cole: 18:42

And it's the power of appreciative inquiry or solution, focus or visualisation or manifestation whatever you choose to call it which is, if we look at what the future, let's pretend that we know what future perfect looks like and then take steps towards that, whereas if we just sit in our own little whatever, we're never going to go forward, we're never going to get closer to that. So strategy, let's move on to the life strategy framework. Now that we've done our stock take and we've decided that we're going to move forward. How do we do it?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 19:10

I love it. I love it. So the end of the stock, where we're underloaded and then where we've got some sort of interesting conundrums and we've scribbled all that down. So we're an informed participant in the life strategy process. Now we're not just coming in without first understanding or knowing thyself the life strategy process, then it's an interesting one, because often what we do in counselling or whatever is we start small and then go up to big. We'll start with something. You can do this within your control and work your way up In life strategy. We turn that thing upside down. We go, well, start by doing nothing and consider we call it the big picture, and the first thing we want to do is just park for a moment all of our Lego box of wonderful ideas or frustrations. We have to know who we are to even begin, of course. But we want to then take a step back and think about the big picture of our lives and then in the second part, we bring it all together to take our stock tape, to take what our big picture has meant and then turn it into a new roadmap for what's ahead for us.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 20:16

So the next bit we do is we go deep and we think about our legacy, which is obviously an awkward one, you know, about what you want to leave behind in the world, about what you think is important. All the other exercise that's in there, of course, is the old tombstone. What is it people would say about you when you're gone? And then from there we move our way through getting ever more concrete. From legacy we get into the dreams, the very fluffy ambitions and waffle and whatever fantasy world. Again, as adults we struggle with that stuff because we're so into the here and now and then we move into actually articulating goals. So part one is about your legacy, your dreams and your goals, and then part two is the action planning out of all of that energy with your stock tape. But remember, if we think about legacy, for example, it's about the four quadrants all the way.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 21:04

So what is your legacy? What would you like it to be in the area of work? And school leaders quickly rabble off something about that. What about your relationship area? And then they might pause and that might be a bit hard to wrestle with Family and friends. They might do reasonably well there, but then play. What's your legacy statement? What's your end of life goal? So you look back on what you did in the world of play in your life and you are just so happy. It's just been such a beautiful, wonderful ride. And again we're asking people to fantasize. They're in the hospital with the oxygen on and just all smiles. When I people to fantasize, they're in the hospital with the oxygen on and just all smiles. When I think about play, I'm all smiles because whatever. When I think about work, I'm just all smiles, because when I think about relationship intimacy, I'm just all smiles. And when I think about family and friends, I think about this beautiful legacy and I'm just. It's been a privilege to be on this adventure they call life correct me if I'm.

Jenny Cole: 21:59

I'm not necessarily talking about legacy as my contribution to the field of play, for example. You're not thinking about lying in your hospital bed and thinking, okay, they're going to write a story about me in Sports Illustrated because I've made this amazing contribution to snowboarding.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 22:18

Maybe that could be part of it. Sorry, my physical expression was yeah, it could be. What I'm wanting you to do is simply answer the question for yourself. Right, and so I'd say to that person because, I agree, I see where you're going. But even if they did say that, I'd say well, what's in the article, what's the key? You know if they had a summary box of the key points about your snowboarding, but what if or what would you want them to say?

Jenny Cole: 22:39

Sorry, oh yes, absolutely, and I'm sure most of the people listening to this could absolutely write their eulogy work-wise, possibly even family-wise. What if my play is doing needlecraft? And that's the thing that really calms me down and that I'm really good at, and that's how I relax. What is my eulogy, my legacy? What do they say in that summary box?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 23:04

I love it. I love it.

Jenny Cole: 23:07

It just gets a little harder.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 23:08

Yeah, but it's so important and I'd like to just stay there. So, again, for those who download off your link, the book, I'll put my neck on the block and then we'll quickly jump back to you. Sure, sure, and that's page 120 of the book. In the appendix you've actually got mine. And then, for those who want to reach out to me, I'll send you my current one, uh, as of right now, which is the same template with, and you'll see how little is different in some places after 10 years. So it's the same thing. And then you'll see other things that are obviously different, but my play legacy, right? So, yeah, I like to surf Sorry, we'll come straight back to you.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 23:42

And then I like hiking and I'm an outdoor-y person and I love sharing those experiences with others, et cetera. So what I wrote down is that I would like it to be said that about Pete, that he loved the outdoors and went on many great adventures. So I wrote that in 2014. And then, in the republishing and rewriting of this, that is 100%, absolutely still how I want to be. So let's return to you now. You love needlecraft.

Jenny Cole: 24:08

I don't, but that was what came to mind. But I'm just thinking, if I did it could be she was calm and relaxed because she did her quiet needlecraft. I mean, to me that's a meditative thing, it's a flow sort of. It's an activity that would cause flow and calm. So her hobby has made her calm and something content, Sure sure, sure, but the hobby itself is this needle craft.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 24:35

Oh I know, I know this is hypothetical, but it's this needle craft it's this attention to detail, it's this creating beautiful things.

Jenny Cole: 24:43

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 24:45

Well, it might be. I mean, it's just an inquiry, isn't it? But we're asking that person ie you in this hypothetical about well, it's the legacy of this making beautiful things, or taking a moment to appreciate all the small things and the beauty in that? We just or taking a moment to appreciate all the small things and the beauty in that, or is it? You know, we just ask the questions, like we all do, until that person says you know what? That's what I'm aiming for.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 25:04

And then we just move on to the next piece of the quadrants.

Jenny Cole: 25:07

I was speaking to someone yesterday this has just come to mind whose husband is a school teacher, head of learning, and he tinkers with cars on the weekend. That's his thing. He's got a and he just loves it. It's very calming, but it also gets him out of the house because he's got a group of mates who, and so that's where there's an overlap between play and relationships. That hobby feels calming, but it also allows him to have a connection with a group of other people that obviously fulfill him on all sorts of levels. So I've just made that connection there Perfect.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 25:43

But what we do in life strategy is really get you clear on what you do with or without the connection. First, because you just love it and if you're stuck you just try stuff out and you know it just takes a bit longer to reassemble and get to know yourself in the play space. No biggie, because when you're then building all your connections up and out of that place of loving, tinkering with the cars and the SJ Holdens and the restoring of this, when you're already hooked on the thing, then the people it's just like icing on the cake. It's just amazing.

Jenny Cole: 26:12

Got you Right, all right, and so I use that example because I just think it would be radically different for different people what they're trying to find a legacy in play felt a bit odd to me in the beginning.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 26:25

If it's not, you're ahead of the game. I mean, otherwise this whole process wouldn't be so mysterious. And you're right. A lot of people are like, yeah, so I like playing Sudoku, yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah, cool, cool, and how much do you? So we go back to the stock, take questions and you know you're happy, you're playing it enough, and this and that and what do you? Like really about it and I love the riddle, I like pushing myself, you know whatever it is, but then we say right, we're going to get into all sorts of practical things about play for you in a minute.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 26:53

From a legacy perspective. What do you want, if to say about you or whatever? You know, nana was always curious, she loved a puzzle and she was always happy just to sit in her space. You know I always loved how she found so much joy in the little things.

Jenny Cole: 27:06

Yeah, got you, or whatever, yeah, whatever.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 27:08

And then that's the end of that exercise. We don't want to overdo it because we've got to keep going through the steps of strategy.

Jenny Cole: 27:13

So what comes next? Yeah?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 27:16

so if we've got a legacy statement for play, for work, for relationship, for family and friends, then we're ready to look at life dreams. And again, just to restate, the whole point of the legacy is so, as Stephen Covey says, you want to begin with the end in mind. And if you haven't thought about, is that even sort of a valuable legacy, is it even worthwhile? Then you start building a house on shoddy foundations Because, at the end of the day, if what you're doing is innately worthwhile and you're innately worthwhile, then you're at peace with all the challenges you're yet to face and you don't have to second guess yourself. And, as we just talked about with play, if friends come and go, but you love tinkering with cars, you'll survive that. You'll be okay with that. You'll find your way. And when you don't have a network that support your play goals like sometimes I don't you'll just head off on your adventures and you'll still have a great time because you're doing something that's innately connected to you.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 28:08

That's the midlife crisis problem, isn't it? You've got all these executives and all these school leaders not just school leaders, just anyone and they've spent all this recent time in family rearing and career climbing and what's happened is they've drained out their play goals and you know the research on the number of type a executives or whatever but retirement, their life spans around four years and it's always cardiovascular failure or cancer that kills them. What we're seeing here, as you said at the outset, is they've found meaning and purpose in only one of the four domains and now, existentially and physiologically, when that's taken away, they just don't literally survive.

Jenny Cole: 28:45

Yeah, there's nothing left that is fulfilling or satisfying. Yeah, not worked on it.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 28:50

Or they've not found joy in the other things along the way, so they can't move their joy between the four areas, if you like.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 28:56

And what we need to do to live that endless summer is experience joy in all four areas. And so what does it say? It rains on the righteous and the unrighteous, it's all these different religious quotes, but the idea is, in any of those four areas, one of those will be cooked, but that's okay. We move our joy and our focus onto another one and we just keep moving around this beautiful world that we live in whilst all sorts of challenges still happen. That is the endless slumber, you know. So, yeah, a lot of them have spent a lot of time reconnecting with play and they've got to go to a furniture repair course that they hated. That's okay. Try something else. And then they give up because it's too hard to try something else, and we go right back to well, are you aiming for this great life or are you just deciding you'd rather settle for second best because you don't want to keep trying new till you really connect with them?

Jenny Cole: 29:37

And exactly the same theory for both relationships. Have I neglected my key relationships and have I neglected family and friends? The answer is often yes. With a lot of people who've been stuck in their career and so we know we need to move, work around a bit. We're spending too much time there, there is nothing in those other quadrants and it can feel very discombobulating, I'm sure, for a lot of people.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 30:01

Well, that's right, and the legacy question is the one that we begin with because it makes them go. That's not even important to me. Okay, yeah, play or my work is my life. They've got this whole, like we say in the book, there's this whole religious or spiritual or existential framework around why they are that way, and we're not trying to argue with them that work isn't important. What we're trying to do is help them see the bigger picture of where work fits in and alert them to lost opportunities for happiness.

Jenny Cole: 30:28

Which goes back to that very initial question about why do I tolerate this level of stress in my life, and it's about not getting the balance right in those other areas.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 30:39

And why don't I have the balance right in those other areas? And why don't I have the balance right in those other areas? Because I don't value them enough, I haven't been intentional enough about them and I don't see them as legitimate.

Jenny Cole: 30:47

And so let's move on to dreaming big picture and visioning. We've developed our legacy, then, which feels like dreaming. How's the dreaming phase different to the legacy phase?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 30:59

Really great question. So the legacy phase is pretty dark and concrete, you know, because it's basically the idea of when you pass and even as you live, you can't control other people's opinions about you, and so on and so forth. What you do have is the ability right now to decide what you would like it to be and then, for the rest of your years remaining to every day, take steps toward what you'd like it to be and then, for the rest of your years remaining to every day, take steps toward what you'd like it to be, so you can influence it, even if you can't control it. And then we use either the tombstone analogy in the book or the funeral speech, the eulogy, and so the first bit's very concrete and uncomfortable for a lot of people, but at least they're prepared to tolerate the discomfort. They have to draw a line in the sand. They have to decide something they say.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 31:40

You know what I want to be known as adventurous. Sorry, I don't need to tell the world, but just those in my orbit. Now, page 120, I want to help and challenge people to be their best. You know what I want to love my partner passionately and completely, and friends and family. You know what I would like to be known as generous, supportive and available. So I've drawn a line in the sand with that and a lot of people go, yeah, but blah, blah, blah, you can't control this and that, pete, or that's very narcissistic of you, or whatever. People who say those things don't understand the task. It was already a given that I couldn't control any of that. It was already a given that life is a grand mystery. I either am going to take agency, as we say in education, I'm either going to take responsibility and say I accept all of what I can't control.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 32:19

And every day and every breath I take. I'll try to go this way because I believe that's, at the end of my life, something important. So, as long as people go over the hump. Returning to your question, we can now dream dreams and I love the dream dreams bit.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 32:30

As adults, we suck at this so badly. When we're kids, we can decide to be a rock star or a fire chief or whatever we want. That's all. My younger children want to be YouTube influencers, mr Beast. That's their fantasy. But that's fantastic. And that whole imagination. I think Albert Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge. That's the grand quote from Einstein. So life dreams go through the same four areas again and say let's go crazy here, pete, win the lotto. We have all sorts of stimulus in the book if people are struggling with how to access this. But let's start dreaming some dream. And so we take each one of those legacy statements and say, right, that's the end of it all. When it's all over, you've got to there. What happened along the way? What cool things happened. And again, the execs I work with. They suck at this stuff because they can't sit in a vague fantasy. Everything has to be here, now, concrete.

Jenny Cole: 33:23

And I'll say things like but how's that going to work? I'm like we're not at the how's that going to work stage yet. We're just dreaming.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 33:29

yes, Great, and why do you think you're an expert at this too, Jenny? Why do they need to sit in that space? Why do you have to keep them there over and over again, instead of allowing them to just do some? Get on their phone and book a plane ticket or something, why would you hold them in that space?

Jenny Cole: 33:50

To me it's about possibility. It's good old fashion hope theory, which is there's a million ways to get there, but if we don't know where we're going, we don't know whether to book a plane ticket or a train ticket. There might be other ways of getting there. So unless you've got that dream in mind, we can't then work out what the best steps are, Whereas if we're just taking little tactical steps, to me it's just obvious. If we don't know where we're going, then how do we know how to get there?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 34:12

Yeah, yeah, true, true. And if I can finesse or add to what you're saying, to find out where we're going, the concrete step was the legacy statement yeah yeah, but the dreams piece is then to say what would be the ideal way to get there.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 34:26

Well, if we took money and time and health and all of that out of the equation. What comes to your mind right now is an awesome way to have arrived at that destination, and I go crazy with this stuff because I've been doing it a while and I've got back to my little childhood, pete. There's private jets, there's gold bars, there's gigantic networks of family and friends, there's white Chino country road stuff on the beach with a bonfire and a super yacht in the background and a perfect right-handed point break Mate. I can really get into this and that's exactly what we want people to do.

Jenny Cole: 35:02

We want them to go there and embody it like it's manifested.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 35:04

Yes, yes, yeah, and we and work. What about that amazing school and parents and teachers and what about that bureaucracy that's just right there when you need them? What about at relationship level? What about the perfect partner and you being the perfect partner? And what about just the ability to communicate in a safe, non-anxious way around intimacy and needs? What about all that going right for you, family and friends? Same deal and one of the things that went around in workplace health and safety a long time ago, in zero risk, and all of this was. We all talked about the importance of not just imagining what could go wrong, but entertaining the possibility of what could go right and that's huge.

Jenny Cole: 35:44

For some people, that is just what if it goes right, what if it could happen? And some people just find that really difficult and uncomfortable. So getting people to sit in that space is important, because what if it does go right?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 35:58

That's right. And then with those people it's even harder because eventually they start to articulate something. So it's great, now 10x that, 10 times that or 100 times that, and if they can stay there long enough. It's incredible Sorry, veteran psychologist it's incredible what shifts in there. What we would say it's subconscious or unconscious moment is starting to shift. It's incredible to see and again, the same tools are used in schools with what we do with the school program and the organisation space, because we call it a Y chart. What would it look like, sound like and feel like if it all just went fabulously right? And then then they're stuck. Well, I don't know, people would be less angry. Yeah, yeah, let's write that down. But now let's 10x that. What's better than less angry? Oh, joy, great. Well, what's higher than joy, ecstatic. And then they're kind of centering themselves. They have to stop it because they're ecstatic. Peter, you, you're being silly. Stop the exercise. I'm like, well, the whole reason you're doing. That is why we need to keep the exercise going.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 36:51

Until you can calm down and sit in the space of ecstatic just for 10, 15 seconds. It doesn't have to be long, but until you can embrace that as a real thing. If I'm here to really help you, I'm calling time here. We are going to sit here until you can entertain the fantasy that people could feel ecstatic yeah, and then we'll move on. I promise you I won't keep you here longer than you have to be. You can go back to your negative self, don't worry. But you can't go there yet because you haven't entertained the opposite state. So the dreams area of play, of work, of relationship and family and friends is about whatever we need to do to get into that crazy, amazing space.

Jenny Cole: 37:28

It's the possibility and everything going right. And with our brain just trying to keep us safe all the time. This is difficult, it's hard work and it feels unsafe and it feels frivolous, it's like, oh, this is ridiculous. And so, as you said in that school example, getting people to sit in it until it feels might be possible, I knew.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 37:49

And then we get that kind of that little electricity that maybe it better, maybe this could be better, and heading in that direction, and so the dreams area is that process, but it ends in again a concrete kind of statement, if you like, for each of the four areas of our lives.

Jenny Cole: 38:07

And you mentioned this in the book and it's something that I've become interested in lately is that some people are actually fearful of success. What if I do succeed? What if I get to my dreams? Is that what you were talking about when you said it does feel unsafe?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 38:23

Yeah, yeah, it's terrifying. So back in 1960s, 1970s, psychology fear of failure has been around a long time and the idea went wide for threat Somewhere in all of that. I can't remember who the theorist was, but they were a marathon runner and they used to go to the pub in America and drink with their friends and all of this, and then they ran as a thing to do. Maybe they were depressed, I can't remember. But the story itself is about how they progressed and they progressed and they progressed with their running and they wanted to do New York, Boston, something where they had to qualify. You know, the whole thing's getting better and better and then they start sabotaging it and they stop training. Anyway, really can't remember the story properly, but can remember the point of the story, and the point of the story was the reason they didn't move on with their goals I think eventually it had a happy ending was because the longer they did that, the more they would have to shift away from their drinking buddy.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 39:08

You know, the less they had in common with their survival group, yes, yeah, and so in the end, they had this existential crisis, if you like, about it. Well, if all this goes well, say, the typical person ends up having this jet-setting lifestyle and, from wherever they were, they win the lotto cliche. And then, all of a sudden, everything is right and they can't cry they don't have any money anymore because they've got an endless bank account. And they can't cry that their family's dysfunctional because in our fantasy world, that's all been fixed and their friends are egging them on and are just as disciplined as they are and everything's going right. Well, that's catastrophic for a lot of people, because if everything's right, my whole world rests on the fact that there's always someone else to blame.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 39:49

Yeah, yeah yeah that I'm not responsible. It was those other people, it was the tax office, it was the wage thing, it was COVID. And again we're acknowledging all those things are real in the real world. But at this point in the life strategy this is pure self-responsibility. We're asking people to simply pretend like they are in charge and it is all going to work out, because if they don't do that, they're creating no psychological space in their heads for success, so they are continuing on with their old programming. They're not creating the room to even begin to build a new program.

Jenny Cole: 40:22

Yes, and sometimes our dreams and our goals are not always just about adding stuff. It's about shedding some of those beliefs and mindsets and people and relationships and play and work that no longer serves us, and that's scary yeah.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 40:37

And we talk about the three types of dreams being doing and having.

Jenny Cole: 40:42

Yeah.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 40:43

And so, again, people who get stuck, we can bust out a white chart and get them to think what would it look like, sound like and feel like if they're stuck there, or if we find they're just constantly to do with having? I now have a Lamborghini and blah, blah and gold bars Again, we don't disrupt that because, as Viktor Frankl said in Man's Search for Meaning, they who have a Y Nietzsche can endure anyhow. So the most important thing of all is you have a life strategy. We don't want to qualitatively judge you for it, but if it's full of haves, then we go. What about the doing aspect of play or work or relationship or family and friends? And then the most, I would agree I have a bias. The being aspect is where the joy really is, but joy can be found in having and doing as well as being.

Jenny Cole: 41:26

Absolutely. I've got a starting strong process. And the last bit is who do I want to be? And I always say, if I was allowed to, I'd say this first, but you wouldn't come to the course if it started with who's the leader I want to be? You're like what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to do. So we often our busy lives, we get stuck in the doing and then we think, in order to stop doing, we need to have something else. But you're right, I've got a bit of a preference for the being as well. Who do we have to be in order to enjoy our relationships, to make the most of our play?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 42:00

And it is from my experience in clinical practice, the hierarchy I used to deal with a lot of angry young adolescent men or whatever, and it was always have, do be, and so if they're stuck at be, you go to do, and if they're stuck at do you go to have, and they always want a Ferrari or whatever.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 42:16

There is always a concrete starting point. So it's always about oh, that's awesome, yeah, man, cool, why do you want that? Oh, man, the chicks will think I'm awesome, Great, Talk to me about that. Why do you want a chick, Whatever. And then we're on to the doing. And what would you be doing? Would you be chatting, playing music? You know it's so easy If you get stuck yourself. Start with a have Again permission to be materialistic, hedonistic. Yep, yep, have it. But then you can ask yourself the question in having it what does that enable me to be?

Jenny Cole: 42:50

And so a potential leadership one is I want to have a holiday house that I can escape to, fabulous, awesome, I'm so with them. What a great fantasy. But I want it to be concrete and glass.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 42:57

I want it to overlook a left and a right point break. I want there to be like a snorkeling reef and I want a private path. Not that I've thought about this, but but okay, pete.

Jenny Cole: 43:05

So what would you be doing in your fabulous holiday house?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 43:08

that's right. There we go. Well, uh, we'd be like uh, cooking pancake. Oh, the whole family would be there. And if I don't have a family yet, you'd ask those questions. Well, who would I and how does that work?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 43:18

and anyway, we'd all be there and we'd be up early and the sun would be, or in the evening in the west australia, the west anyway. We'd have the sunlight streaming in east or west and we'd be laughing and music on the screen from some YouTube pop stars the kids like, and I'd be flipping pancakes and we'd all be frothing about the surf out there and thinking about the wind, and I could go on forever.

Jenny Cole: 43:40

And then, obviously, we'd talk and say what kind of person do you need to be, or would you be in order for that kind of lifestyle?

Dr Pete Stebbins: 43:47

And suddenly we'd hit the money right. Well, I'd be calm, generous, focused, beautiful. And then you can hear I don't know people probably hear my breath change just then. You know, all of a sudden, there's this transition into oh wow, I'm not those things yet, or I don't feel those things as we speak right now.

Jenny Cole: 44:03

Yeah, there was your breath change and there was a bit of a sigh, like there was a your breath change and there was a bit of a bit of a sigh like, oh, that's me, I've come home, that's who I want to be.

Dr Pete Stebbins: 44:11

yeah, and so you are a brilliant therapist, jenny, because what you'd be doing then is locking all that down on the worksheet, page 120, and saying, right, so let's capture that on whichever domain, play or work, and you get them through it. Or, as everyone can, they just do this on their own, just scribble things down in the book, but they are looking to get themselves to there, and when they get there and they write that down, that is their life dream. That's it. That's the thing.

Jenny Cole: 44:34

Oh, let's stop there because I think that's really great. We've captured the first two parts of the life strategy model. We're going to come back in the next episode and look at setting goals and taking action. So, Dr Pete, lovely to speak to you again.

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