Embracing the Unexpected: Leadership and Innovation with Sara Campbell

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello there and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole. I'm the Chief Everything Officer at Positively Beaming and I am thrilled today to be joined by, I'm going to say, a friend and colleague, Sara Campbell. Welcome, Sara.

Sara Campbell: 1:19

Thank you, Jenny. It's so lovely for you to ask me to join you today.

Jenny Cole: 1:22

Pleasure is all mine. Sara is a Deputy Principal, not a new school anymore, but it's only a relatively new school in a rapidly growing area and it's a fully inclusive primary school in Perth southern suburbs. When she's not at work, Sara is volunteering at a local soccer club or watching her two boys and her husband play. She's got a very active blue heeler called Lucy who's needy and requires lots of walks and pats. I'm not sure where you get time to do any of that, because you also love to travel. You've just come back from America having visited theme parks with your boys. That sounds like a really busy life, Sara.

Sara Campbell: 1:58

Very busy - Family, work and then trying to find time to relax. It's busy, but good busy, not bad busy.

Jenny Cole: 2:09

Good busy, yes, excellent. Share with us a little bit about your leadership journey, because it didn't start necessarily in Australia. Talk us through how you ended up as a deputy principal.

Sara Campbell: 2:17

Well, I started teaching computing and art many years ago and then quickly found a passion with working with students with disabilities or additional needs. And then we sort of travelled around England and in UK there's lots of special needs schools where it's visually impaired or behaviour or autism, like it's very segregated. So I worked in a few of those, met a few principals over there. That really inspired me to see things differently and to see the uniqueness and the strengths in the students, even though they had massive challenges, but to find those strengths and bring them out. So I sort of got inspired by a principal over in East London. And then I came back to Perth and I got a job in a Catholic high school and in an ed support sort of centre and I sort of tried to get my head around that balance between being in a ed support setting but also having a mainstream environment close by, and how do you get that balance right? So I've always been trying to get that balance right for the students, for academic, for social and emotional growth and their own independence. And it's still a battle. So I'm still fighting that battle.

Sara Campbell: 3:24

That's led me to want to lead and my passion back then when I was at the high school was our education assistants.

Sara Campbell: 3:31

As a teacher I could see the need to see their strengths and to see the value that they hold and sometimes you know there are eyes and ears when we're teaching, we're giving information, but they're doing everything else behind the scenes.

Sara Campbell: 3:44

And that was so invaluable and to have that thirst for knowledge. So I created a few programs back then to upskill them and empower them so they could teach small classes and then as head of department I was able to sort of outlay some of that. But then I couldn't really in the Catholic system, in the high school system, if I had moved on to a deputy principal position, it would take me away from disability. So that's why I then left the Catholic system and went to the education department and I didn't realise how many ed support schools we had in Perth. So I started looking around and meeting people. The ed support network that we have is amazing and the women in that group which you know very well, jenny very inspiring women, and I met heaps of people in those first few years, and three particularly that were very close with, so very close with in terms of they're my unofficial mentors.

Sara Campbell: 4:34

But they're my rock, so constant texts and emails and stupid questions and funny things, and we've had some good times and with you joining us sometimes so yeah, I moved into the ed department and worked as a deputy principal at a small primary school, so I moved from high school to primary school. I was always really interested how the journey of disability resourcing and diagnosis happened from the start, because in a high school I'd get them in year seven or year eight and I'd miss that whole beginning chunk. 

And it'd come to me and I'd try and figure out what happened before. So I was really excited to learn the beginning bits. So now, meeting families when their children are two and three and they're getting ready for primary school I love that side of it, that early intervention that's been interesting and that's been a big learning curve for me too, because high school has been my thing and now I'm getting my head around primary school I said it was a fully inclusive model.

Jenny Cole: 5:29

Talk to us about so. You've been in what we call centres. So they're often with or adjacent to a regular school, but this is fully inclusive. What does that look like on the ground? What?

Sara Campbell: 5:41

does it look like. It's been hard. What we wanted to do is we wanted to create an environment of school that had a natural percentage of students with disabilities to students without that reflects the community. So we started doing that, but then our numbers are just increasing so rapidly. So for an ed support centre, for example, they can take out of catchment, but once they're full, they're full. With an endorsed program that we have, we can take out of catchment, but once they're full, they're full. With an endorsed program that we have, we can take out of catchment a certain number and then, once we're full, we're full. But if students move into the area, into our catchment, we have to take them. So then we're finding that parents will phone and say, are you full? And yes, and the next minute they're moved into the area and then they come anyway.

Sara Campbell: 6:24

So, our numbers are just increasing quicker and bigger than we had originally planned, which means that in all our classes, through from K to year six, there's a high number of students with additional needs in each year, higher than we had planned or expected. And it is okay. That's not a bad thing, but we just had to change our planning and change our processes to suit that, because we always sort of said we will support any student in the local catchment. We always wanted students to be able to go to their local school and with their siblings.

Sara Campbell: 6:56

That was sort of what we always said.

Sara Campbell: 6:58

So we'll make adjustments to support them and break down those barriers. But it has been hard because every year we have more and more and more. It's just getting bigger and bigger. And in our first year it was so beautiful to be able to hire our staff, our teachers and our EAs, and meet them and talk about what our inclusive philosophy was going to be like and get them on board and join us from that journey. So that was so lovely to be able to do that. But it is hard and we do keep changing our process and our plan and our structure to suit the ever-changing needs of the kids and every year we're trying something different because we've got to get it right and it's not easy and I sort of see why every school doesn't do it, because it is hard, but we're trying something.

Jenny Cole: 7:40

And you're obviously successful, because otherwise people wouldn't be literally buying a house in the catchment area. But you're a victim of your own success and the school itself is in a rapidly growing area. So the school is doubling and tripling in size, regardless, yes.

Sara Campbell: 7:59

Still there's houses that haven't been built, and every day, every week, there's new enrolments. Even in term four last term, there was still a good 30 or 40 enrolments. It's just a constant growth. So we've got six more classes starting this year, like new transportables already, even though we're only in our fourth year. But yeah, it's a rapidly growing suburb. Hopefully that'll slow down in a few years, but we'll see. I think the beauty of it, though, is our leadership team. We have a really strong leadership team, and, working in a small ed support school, as you know, it's a little bit isolating, because if you're the principal at a level three, you quite often wouldn't have a deputy with you. You might possibly be by yourself, but having a larger school creates a larger team. So we have a principal and we have four and a half deputies.

Sara Campbell: 8:43

So we have a big team of people that we can work with to sort of nut it all out.

Jenny Cole: 8:49

Yes, and again, that's grown over time. In this role, where you're well and truly on the senior leadership team, you're part of a big team in a big school. What's that taught you about leadership? What do you do differently or what are you wishing you before you came in?

Sara Campbell: 9:05

I think with our philosophy. We always tried we didn't want to pigeonhole people so that I was, for example, the person that dealt with everything to do with disability. So we decided that. So I look after the year four, five and six, like the older students, and our other three deputies have other years and even though disability is my strength, if the others are struggling I would support them and then they support me with the other things. So primary school curriculum and whole school assessment data is not my strength, but I know who has those strengths. So it has allowed me to continue to learn new things, because disability I sort of I get that's easier for me. But whole school assessment data and reading and understanding that doesn't really interest me massively but I have to. So I'm trying to be inspired by the other ladies and how they do it and how they get excited about it.

Sara Campbell: 9:54

So leaning on other strengths is important and recognizing that, the value that they bring to the table, and also being honest and saying I don't get it, I don't understand. Sometimes teachers will say, Sara, let's decode. I'm like I don't know. Sometimes teachers will say, Sara, let's decode. I'm like I don't know.

Jenny Cole: 10:09

I'll get help for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's outside my wheelhouse.

Sara Campbell: 10:11

Yeah.

Jenny Cole: 10:12

I can't even make that up Earlier in your career, how prepared would you be to say I don't know, I don't understand? Has that changed as you've it?

Sara Campbell: 10:20

really has. When I first had the head of department role, there was a lot of pressure in the high-performing Catholic schools to know everything and be the best and I did have to pretend and fake it and even think that I knew everything. I remember doing a reflective survey and it came out quite high, higher than what the reality is, and I've reflected on that over years. And back then I didn't have a mentor, I didn't have anyone to tell me those things. I think I met you once at a PL while I was at a Catholic high school and I listened to you. But then, when I moved into the department, I did work with you as a mentor and that changed a few things of how I perceive leadership.

Sara Campbell: 10:59

So, yeah, much easier to say I don't understand, I don't know. Please show me, please teach me. I don't get it. Budgets money is not my thing At home and at school, yeah, but I'm always sitting on the finance committee though I've always put myself on every school's finance committee so I could listen and try and absorb it, but it doesn't interest me but, I know I need to know it and I know I need to get my head around it, but I don't really like it.

Jenny Cole: 11:24

But I like, so you can avoid things you don't like or you can actually insert yourself in it and think at least I know that the questions people are asking and the decisions that are being made at this level, yeah, for sure. I've got a really bad memory these days, but I distinctly remember the cohort of people that you did the leadership training with the aspirant leadership program yeah, when we did a 2018. Yeah, and you'd not that long come out of the Catholic system.

Jenny Cole: 11:52

I couldn't believe that there are all these schools and all these leaders and all this network and all the PL and all of this kind of stuff. And I remember you saying, my goodness, and that's kind of when you and I started. You call me a mentor, which is really lovely, but we'd see each other at events and things and you'd ask questions. Is that where you started to form your networks? And you mentioned earlier? You've got a group of people that you rely on, but talk to me about networks and the importance of those as a leader.

Sara Campbell: 12:23

I think that having a network of people, well it's twofold. It's a network, a larger network of people that you can speak with, catch up with, learn from, but it's also that network, that smaller network of friends or mentors, that's important. So the Ed Support World have a great network. They have a great sort of South network and a great WA network too, and there's lots of events that happens around that. There's lots of conferences and PL.

Sara Campbell: 12:48

So, there's a lot of networking going on there, which means that you have that availability to talk things through with people. And there's lots of these networks have chat lines or chat groups on email as well, so there's questions daily on little things and if you follow it, you can learn from it, and there's lots of experienced principals in these groups and they're more than happy to help you and phone them or get hot tips from. It's very supportive.

Sara Campbell: 13:12

I didn't feel that in the other system but, as soon as I jumped to this system, I felt so much support and everyone is just so caring and they want to share their knowledge with you. And having the three women they're all three principals in ed support schools having them is like having that core group. No question is stupid, it goes for all of us and I think that's really, really important to have that and I would encourage people to have that strong network of people that you can trust and ask those stupid questions that you know. You've asked a million times but you need to know and schools are complex.

Jenny Cole: 13:46

Working with children with challenging behaviours and complex needs, you know every day is different and so sometimes other people will have dealt with it, they will know how to, and sometimes it's just a listening ear which is, you know, I'm having a really bad day because this, that and the next thing happened and those people pick you up, pat you on the head and go you'll be right, darling, and push you on their way.

Jenny Cole: 14:07

Schools, complex places. You're in a really big school at the moment. You talked before about you always had a passion for building education assistants. Your off-sider tells me that you've got hundreds of education assistants now in your school. We do, yeah. How do you keep them upskilled? How has your desired upskill education assistance changed or remained the same?

Sara Campbell: 14:30

Yeah, we've done a lot of whole school professional learning with them and we have a support EA that works to upskill students our EAs around the school. So she sort of goes around and works with people one-on-one. But I think a lot of our language that we use within the school that we started from the beginning. So things like I would always say to everyone I might be going off topic here, but a hot foot for everyone is always to have a plan B and C and D up your sleeve and working with students with complex needs.

Sara Campbell: 15:00

It changes so quickly and what worked yesterday it might not work the next day. So have a plan B and C up your sleeve and adopt that approach with everything that you tackle and don't be afraid to tap out and change face because you could have burnt yourself out with. That student just needs a break and needs someone else. So there's heaps of hot tips that we talk about. We talk about what's the purpose. So what's the purpose of having shoes on? What's the purpose of sitting on a chair? Can they not learn under the desk? Can they not learn walking or pacing? So we always say what's the purpose?

Sara Campbell: 15:29

We do explicitly teach EAs a whole pile of I think. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's 10 sections about collecting data and how to use visuals, and there's a whole pile of things that we do and we have got a. One of our other deputies does some one-on-one support with our EAs as well. So I don't know if I answered that no, no, no, I think, yeah. I think my why has always been seeing the strength in others and then allowing them to see those strengths in them to support our students.

Sara Campbell: 15:59

and I find that a lot of our EAs are amazing. People who should have been teachers could have been teachers. Maybe some were and have decided not to, but their skills and strengths it allows them to teach small classes or large groups. There's been a shift in some teachers' perceptions that EAs can do that, but they're amazing, absolutely amazing, and they work so hard they are the most underutilised resource. They really are yeah.

Jenny Cole: 16:27

I'm thrilled that they're getting some of the professional learning that they need, but also the status building, which is these are fabulous people who know how to do stuff. Use them.

Sara Campbell: 16:38

Yeah, exactly, they're part of a team. Some classes have four adults in the class. They're a team. Have those team meetings and plan together. No one's in charge. You're all working together with the students, so plan together.

Jenny Cole: 16:50

Brilliant. What are some of your leadership lessons I often think about? I don't like to think about mistakes, but often we learn our biggest lessons when we've made a stuff up and a mistake. Are you aware of your lessons and some of the mistakes that you've made?

Sara Campbell: 17:05

Yeah, and I think one hot tip that you taught me years ago I still use, so I'll tell you about that. I did find so relationship building is key to everything, and one thing that I have done for a while is check in with people regularly. So I'll always say to the staff do you have a minute? Do you have a minute? Do you have a minute? And usually I'd say, how are you going? Or I love the way that you did that, or I saw that you did this. That's fantastic. And I'll walk away Like it's a real quick. Do you have a minute? Do you have a minute? And then when I need to say, do you have a minute, I noticed that you've been late past three days. Is everything okay? Then I've already got that relationship with them that they're okay to have those quick conversations with me.

Sara Campbell: 17:48

So I always do that with everyone and I think that that works to create those relationships. And I used to hate difficult conversations, I used to be fearful of them, but now I actually love them and quite often if it needs to be happened, if it needs to be done, I'm happy to step in and do it, because I know that once it's done you've created a deeper relationship with that person Because that conversation, the words, sometimes are difficult to have, but at the end of it you have a stronger bond with them. So it's worth that difficult time or that difficult sort of portion. But I also like approaching those difficult conversations in a positive way and with care and love. You know, are you okay? Is everything okay? I notice you know you're on your phone in class all this week Like what's going on, because it's a below the line behavior and I know that they know so they wouldn't be on their phone if something wasn't wrong. You know what?

Jenny Cole: 18:40

I mean so I?

Sara Campbell: 18:41

would never and I always model this to staff as well I would never if they come to me and say, oh, so-and-so has been on their phone in class and what should I do? It's never tell them off, or I'm not going to put something in the newsletter to say remind everyone to stay off their phone. Just approach it in a positive and a caring way, Are you okay?

Sara Campbell: 18:59

Is everything okay, and I think that's probably something that you did or taught us or explained or presented on many years ago. That sort of stuck with me.

Jenny Cole: 19:08

I think you've taken it to the next level, because there aren't many people who would say that a difficult conversation improves bonds, but it does if it comes from a place of care and concern. They care about you and you're not being the best version of you that you can be. What's going on? How can I help you? Yeah, how can I help? That is true kind of servant leadership, which is in order for you to serve the kids. I need to serve you, and so I'm prepared to have those tough conversations to make sure that we're all doing the right thing.

Sara Campbell: 19:37

Yeah, definitely.

Jenny Cole: 19:38

I like them. It's good. Oh, that's interesting. I just think it's such a good perspective and I love the strategy of you got a minute. I was listening to a relationship counsellor on the podcast who said sometimes we think our partners aren't listening to us, so we have to have a little cue that says I'm about to say something important and yours is have you got a minute, and then you say the important thing, which is you did a great job, or the important thing is, and then you say the important thing, which is you did a great job or the important thing is I saw you on your phone the other day. It's a good cue, love it. Oh, I love learning from my guests Finding staff impossible. How are you consciously building retention and staff wellbeing, because they kind of go hand in hand, anything that you're doing there?

Sara Campbell: 20:21

We try and create a fun environment. So we have the fish philosophy at school. So everything we do fun things. We do little treasure hunts throughout the year and fun events and our staff meetings always start with something fishy or funny to uplift the mood and we always sort of want to treat our staff. We want them to be happy.

Sara Campbell: 20:41

We understand that it is hard and quite often we would tap out with them and you know, go and say, go and have a coffee for 10 minutes and I've got your class. But yeah, it is hard and we're not always successful with that, but we keep trying harder. In our first few years it was easy to get staff, maybe because it was a brand new school. But as we're getting you know into our fourth year and maybe what's happening in the community and WA in general, it is hard. I think we're okay at the moment and we've got enough of everyone. I think I'm touching wood on your behalf, but that quickly changes too, because the students who are graduating now they've got so many options for employment. Moving remotely is far from their mind. They don't need to.

Sara Campbell: 21:21

They can stay in the city and have their choice of places, and I also find that a lot of new graduates don't want to work full-time. They're happy just to do three days, whereas that's something I never considered when I first started working. It was you finish uni, you get a full-time job.

Jenny Cole: 21:34

And you keep working till you die. You keep working exactly. But now this work-life balance, which is super important, coming out of uni with that philosophy and finding that people just want to work part-time and part of yeah, I'd love to Look part of me really admires it. I think this portfolio career, which is I can do three days here and I can do something else for a day and I can whatever I think brilliant, but it does make running a school or an organisation really challenging Exactly, exactly.

Jenny Cole: 22:01

I love the notion about teachers tapping out if they're overwhelmed or exhausted and they're not the best person to be in front of the class for 10 minutes, but that does add to your workload and your stress. How do you manage your workload and your stress levels?

Sara Campbell: 22:15

I mean, I like being in the classrooms. It gives me a break from being in the office, so that's not a it's not a bad thing. I quite like being with the students. But yeah, how do I balance my day? I do make sure I get up and walk around. If I'm having a really stressful day, I will go and sit in a kindy class on the mat with the kindy kids and listen to whatever they're doing or do some imaginative play. I do love that. Yeah, I think. When I get home, yeah, exercising and running and walking the dog and balancing the busy day with that and listening to audio books and listening to music. But yeah, at school some days can be a lot harder. But, like I said before, we've got such a large leadership team and a supportive leadership team that if I'm struggling I can get support from anyone else.

Jenny Cole: 23:00

Oh, that's lovely, and so do you consider yourself an organized person? I mean, how do you run your day by your diary? What helps you stay organized? And on top of just the stuff that heads in your direction?

Sara Campbell: 23:13

I'm really really good at the transactional, the day-to-day, and I create lists and I follow them through and I finish everything. So I'm really really, really good at meticulous at that. I do just use paper or sticky notes and once the sticky note's done, it's ripped off and thrown in the bin, so it's gone. So I think I like that better than crossing out. I think I like the actual throw away. So I'm good at the day-to-day transactional stuff.

Sara Campbell: 23:37

But I do struggle sometimes with the bigger picture, with the transformational things because I'm so focused on what I need to do today and then maybe tomorrow, but I have to sit and remind myself I've got a plan for next week and next term, and that's not a strength of mine, even at home as well, my husband's good at that, but I'm not good at that.

Jenny Cole: 23:58

So, working in the disability field, you've got funding submissions and you've got enrollments and you're often looking forward. How do you take your nose off what's in front of you and get strategic? What have you tried that works?

Sara Campbell: 24:11

I have a diary that has things mapped out with when I have to do things by a certain date. So if it's something that I have to have to do, like that, plan prep or PIAC or, like you said, disability resourcing, but that's, I can do that because there's a time limit on that. But when it's something that doesn't have a time constraint, then that's a bit more wishy-washy for me and that could drag on. But if I give that an end date, then I will stick to it. I'm really good at deadlines and I will always have something done by the actual time and get frustrated sometimes when others don't, because I expect that they would, because it was due Monday. Why is it not done? It's due Monday. Why do I have to double check that? You've done it Because it was due, because I make sure that I do that.

Jenny Cole: 24:54

So, yeah, that's interesting because once you're in a middle or senior leadership role, you're waiting often on others to finish their job so that you can do yours, especially if you're a collaborative leader. So you've left people to make decisions and they're going to feed through to you. There's a fine line between checking up on people and checking in with people. How do you make sure people are doing what they're supposed to be doing?

Sara Campbell: 25:17

It's hard, it's very hard, and one example is reports. I can't edit the reports until they're done, and the reports can't go out until I've edited and signed them. So for those in my team I sort of know who gets them in on the date who gets them in super early and I do those first and then I know who's not going to.

Sara Campbell: 25:37

So I'll target them the week before and try and saturate them with time and love and support and reminders and help. And then comes the date and they don't. Yeah, it is frustrating, but then work around it.

Jenny Cole: 25:51

And understanding that everyone's different and you know different people are going to need different things. One of the things I know you do are walking meetings Explain to people what they are and how they've helped you.

Sara Campbell: 26:02

Yes, I love a good walking meeting for a couple of reasons. One it opens up people. It relaxes people. I find sometimes, when you're sitting at a desk and I have a desk in my office I also have a round table- so if people come in, I would always get out of my desk around and sit with them at the round table.

Sara Campbell: 26:19

So I'm not sort of talking over the desk. So that's the strategy for connection. But also I find that that's also confronting, because it's quite a small space. So often I would say I'll meet you at playground B and we'll go for a walk, or I'll meet you outside the office and we'll go for a walk. It just relaxes people and it allows them to focus on other things and talk openly and not be staring directly at each other.

Sara Campbell: 26:42

It also supports those conversations where I don't want to get stuck in a long conversation for a long time. So if we do a walking sort of talk, I can easily end it by a distraction or someone else needs me and I'll catch up with you later. Thanks for the quick chat and I can be off, whereas in an office sometimes it's a bit harder to go okay time's up, let's go, because I can't really leave. It'd be weird if they stay in my office, so a walk and talk is pretty beneficial.

Jenny Cole: 28:35

I love that. So that's a time management strategy as well as a relationship strategy. We can very easily have the conversation and then we start chatting and you're like, oh, I've got things to do. So if you're walking, you can say see ya. And I'm taking that to mean also that you will quite often go to people's classrooms to catch them rather than people to come to you. Is that right?

Sara Campbell: 28:57

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, my plan every day is to visit every classroom that I line manage. So that's 11 classes. So I plan to I should walk through each one in the morning and then to say hello and check in and then if there's any challenges throughout the day, I'll pop in. But yeah, quite often I would rather meet in their classroom or near their classroom around the playground.

Jenny Cole: 29:18

Good, advice, because I'm sure you just feel like Sara and you feel like exactly the same person that you were when you were a young teacher. But people see you differently and if they're having to come into your office there's a power imbalance, basically. Yeah.

Sara Campbell: 29:36

Yeah, and my office is down the end of a corridor and across from my office is another office, so it isn't private and shutting the door would make it even more sort of yeah, not comfortable. So talking outside is definitely the best thing. I love it.

Jenny Cole: 29:46

So if you've got 11 classrooms, not all of those teachers are full time. So you know all of a sudden you're managing 20, 30 people. How do you find time even for the basic performance conversations that you have to have it?

Sara Campbell: 30:01

is hard but it has to happen. I think the teachers are easier because they get their dot time, so it's easy to catch up with them. It's harder to catch up with the group of EAs that.

Jenny Cole: 30:10

I manage.

Sara Campbell: 30:11

The only way I can do that is to catch them in the morning or after school or while they're working and sit with them, with the student, or catch them when they're doing something one on one outside the classroom. Yeah, it is hard, I do find that hard. It's a struggle, but I do have a list and I tick it off and I do it to make sure that it's upcaptured everybody. But yeah, it's not an easy thing.

Jenny Cole: 30:30

Those lists are great. Someone told me about having a list and every time they have a not just an incidental conversation, but a purposeful conversation with them, they tick it off so that they have a list of the people that they've missed. You know the quiet people, you see the squeaky wheels, you see the newbies, you see the loud ones, but you miss the ones in the middle, of course, because they're okay. Because they're okay, you think, until they're not okay, correct, yeah. So I know your school is also really keen to grow the middle leaders. What are some of the ways that you do that and what sort of advice do you give to new and aspiring leaders?

Sara Campbell: 31:05

So what do we do when one of us is away? We have teachers that step in and support or cover us. I've lost my train of thought.

Jenny Cole: 31:12

Ask me again how does the school support or grow? New leaders could be committee structures or just any training they do. Or, if it's easier, what advice do you give new or aspiring leaders?

Sara Campbell: 31:24

okay. Advice that I would give would be relationship building with the students and the other staff and the parents. I think that's key for anything I mean in the role as a deputy. There's heaps of operational things that you need to learn, but you can be shown that and learn that pretty quickly. But it's more. It's the other things.

Sara Campbell: 31:43

It's that connection with people and that leading with ferocity and warmth at the same time, having that confidence to stand up for something you believe in, to make the change, but doing it with your heart and with care and consideration at the same time. So trying to model that and lead. I had a teacher say to me one day that she was surprised that she knew of someone who had a mentor and thought that that must have been a bad thing because they need a mentor. She thought that that deputy might not have been so good and I said no, no, having a mentor is the best thing. That's the best way to go to support your growth and your learning. You should always have one, two, three, many mentors. The more mentors you can have, the more you're going to learn. So that was interesting to see that other people see mentors as not a hindrance but a negative.

Jenny Cole: 32:36

And I wonder if she thought that by the time you got to leadership, you knew it all and you had it all together. If only they knew. Yes, we still don't know. How do you keep up your professional learning? Where do you get that from? What do you read? What do you listen to? Who do you follow?

Sara Campbell: 32:44

I do love the book by Tracy Ezzard, the Ferocious Warmth. I like that book. The other book that I really love I don't know if you can see this this is called Phosphorance by Julia Baird, and this is a beautiful reminder of awe and wonder and seeing that throughout your day, even at school, as you're walking around looking up instead of looking down.

Sara Campbell: 33:04

I love that book. What about me? Personally? I've been learning a lot about sort of early childhood and the primary curriculum because that's sort of new to me and how to read whole school assessment data and understand that. So I've been learning a little bit about that, the networks that we have that we meet twice a term are important and imperative, and the conferences that we run through them as well helps to upskill.

Jenny Cole: 33:29

Yeah, absolutely, and I just thought it was brilliant that you mentioned phosphorescence. How do you say it, phosphorescence, phosphorescence? I listened to that as an audio book during.

Jenny Cole: 33:40

COVID and I just walked through my local park during COVID and listened to it. It was just sensational. That's a good idea, yeah, and then I read it. But it is about finding joy in the ordinary moments, and I think it's very easy in busy schools to, once you've ploughed through all the stuff, to forget that we're surrounded by lots of moments of joy and beauty, even if that is just hanging out with the kindy kids.

Sara Campbell: 34:05

Yes, and I always make sure my passwords are a little inspirational quote because how many? Times do you have to type in your password in the ed department, Like every single time you go back to your computer. You've got to type it in so mine could be happy or just breathe or appreciate, or then I'll type that word so many times a day for what? A month or so until it changes. So I always do that.

Jenny Cole: 34:28

That's fantastic. I often say to people make your password the habit that you want, like drink more water, but the habit could be be awesome. Yeah, I love it.

Sara Campbell: 34:40

Just breathe is a good one for me, because I'm always rushing around and if I type in just breathe, oh yeah, ok, just breathe, ok, give me a minute.

Jenny Cole: 34:48

Fantastic, Sara. Is there anything that we've not talked about today that you'd like to mention?

Sara Campbell: 34:53

no, I don't think so. No, I can't think of anything, I'm always no, no, no.

Jenny Cole: 34:58

I'm always so impressed, even though you just said I'm always rushing around and you are really busy, but you seem to have this beautiful calm. It'll all get done, it'll all be okay. Kind of well-regulated, it's fine, no biggie, because we can have the opposite disposition. It doesn't get us anywhere any faster, I don't think.

Sara Campbell: 35:20

No, I do. I have a very, very positive outlook on everything and it'll be fine, it'll get done. Or if it doesn't work, we'll just change it. It doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be perfect. Or if it doesn't work, we'll just change it.

Sara Campbell: 35:30

It doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be perfect, but we can change and work on it. I don't know if that bites me sometimes because I'm very positive about everyone yeah, they're fine and that'll get done and that's fine. And sometimes it doesn't I'm like, oh okay, but no, I am very chilled and whatever. I believe that things happen for a reason and if things change it's okay. I remember when I was a little kid, when I was really young, if plans changed I would just have a meltdown. I hated anything changing.

Sara Campbell: 35:58

Like I hated, we were going to go to the movies and now we're going to the park like we're going to the movies, but now, as I get older, I embrace that change and maybe that's where that plan b and c comes from for me, because I know that something might fall apart and sometimes you know it's okay.

Sara Campbell: 36:15

And I do say to my own kids as well you know we're going to go here, but that might not happen, so it doesn't matter, we'll do something else instead, like you know, and we'll go there another day, it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, I try and be crazy and I try and be just go with the flow. I'm happy for other people to plan and do things. My husband's a big planner. The trip we just went on he planned everything and I just went along with the flow and just enjoyed the ride because he loved that. Leading. He loved leading. I lead at school, but at home my husband, he doesn't lead at school, he's also a teacher.

Sara Campbell: 36:46

He leads at home and he loves it I let him do that and it's nice because you can sit back and enjoy and empower someone else to do that.

Jenny Cole: 36:54

Absolutely. And you saying that you're kind of optimistic and it'll all be fine, it'll all work out, isn't that sort of blind optimism, pollyanna-ish, it's like it'll be fine, and if not, we have other solutions.

Sara Campbell: 37:08

Yeah, we do, we can get through it, we'll figure something out, it's okay, and if not, we have other solutions and we can get through it. We'll figure something out, it's okay. And working with students with complex needs, you sort of have to.

Jenny Cole: 37:16

You can't not. No, because they're not following the plan.

Sara Campbell: 37:19

They're not following the plan, they've got their own plan and their plan changes every day. We've got to try and figure out what their new plan is. It's like a puzzle that keeps changing. It's interesting. It's intriguing.

Jenny Cole: 37:30

And if you still know that there's an outcome but you're not holding tight to the strategy or the pathway. We're going to get where we're getting but we're not going to get too hooked up on doing it this exact way.

Sara Campbell: 37:40

Correct, and I'm more than happy for other people to come in with opinions and suggestions. And we'll try that, and we'll try that, and then we'll try that, and then, and we'll try that, and then we'll try that, and then it works. Oh, now it doesn't work, that's okay, we'll try this now.

Jenny Cole: 37:51

Yeah, and permission to take a risk. It's so important I often talk about. It seems a lot of our teachers are very perfectionistic at the moment, like at Pinterest-worthy classrooms stops them taking a risk, whereas if you're their leader saying, yeah, no matter, we'll get there permission to try and permission to stuff up.

Jenny Cole: 38:11

Yeah, definitely, Sara it was a joy, as always, so for listeners. Thank you very much to Sara for joining us. Sara Campbell, if you need to get in contact with Sara for any reason, we will put her contact details below. But enjoy the rest of the last days of the holidays when we're recording this and I'm looking forward to seeing Sara during the year. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you so much. You're welcome.

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