Building Trust and Overcoming Ego in Schools with Brooke McFarlane

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello there, lovely listeners, welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole, and I'm the Chief Everything Officer at Positively Beaming. I'm delighted today to be joined by Brooke McFarlane. Welcome, Brooke.

Brooke McFarlane: 1:17

Thanks, Jen, it's lovely to be here with you.

Jenny Cole: 1:20

Brooke is currently an Associate Principal at a large metropolitan high school north of Perth and she's worked in public education for over 20 years and is passionate about supporting our most vulnerable students in our community. But when she's not at work, she's a mum to two almost adult children and a nine-month-old labradoodle puppy, and my heart goes out to you because I'm sure you've got no shoes and no reticulation left. She loves going to the gym and gardening and going to the beach and hanging out with her family and friends, and we also share, besides an oodle puppy, we share a passion for true crime podcasts, but we're not going to talk about true crime today. Sorry about that, Brooke.

Brooke McFarlane: 1:59

I've got a couple of good recommendations for you, Jen, too.

Jenny Cole: 2:07

Oh, excellent, excellent, We'll grab those at the end. Brooke, do you want to give us a bit of a rundown on your professional career, because I know you've done lots of varied leadership roles. Do you want to give us a bit of a rundown on what they have been? Yeah, sure so.

Brooke McFarlane: 2:17

I started out my career as a drama and English teacher, and so I did that for probably about 10 years before I started to get into that space where I was looking for something a little bit more. I've always worked in what used to be called hard to staff schools. Now we would recognise those as schools with a low ICSIA, and so really I guess that's where I developed my passion for working in those communities that need their public school to be really high quality, because it's a hub for everything for the community often. So from there I've worked as a year coordinator, an attendance officer, so that more attendant and engagement space. I've worked at Statewide Services as a teacher consultant for SEND, behaviour and Engagement. I've been a head of learning area. I've been a student services manager and now I'm a level four associate principal of an education support program Amazing, and my question is what prompts you to move from role to role?

Jenny Cole: 3:15

What goes through your mind when you think, yeah, I'll take that job, oh look.

Brooke McFarlane: 3:19

I think my personality style is that I do kind of get this itchy feet syndrome, but I think think for me personally, it's when I feel really confident and I'm starting to see, I guess, the impact that the previous stages had, that I feel like it's ready to move on.

Brooke McFarlane: 3:35

So I felt like when I got to the stage where I felt ready to move into sort of that student services space after being a teacher, I started to feel my impact outside of the classroom and so I feel like that's something that I've had really great leaders that helped me to identify that as well, because I was really happy in the classroom and I loved being with kids and I was kind of circled back, I guess, to that space a little bit. But it took someone sometimes also saying hey, I've noticed this about you, have you thought about this? And I'd probably still be a classroom teacher, to be honest, if I hadn't had those people that kind of went right, you don't notice this about yourself, and I think that's something I've tried to sort of emulate in my leadership role as well as helping people see their own potential.

Jenny Cole: 4:19

Yes, yes, I'm hearing a lot on my podcast and obviously in the people that I talk to that quite often it's other people recognising that you've got more to give or you can have an impact more broadly. Add that with itchy feet, that ends up with a career with lots of variety. Level four associate principal of ed support, which for those outside Western Australia is a special needs program. Talk to us about what that involves being the deputy responsible for that.

Brooke McFarlane: 4:50

Oh look, so it was a new position as part of the department's sort of moving away from those standalone ed support schools. So it is an inclusive education support program and, look, it's probably one of the most complex spaces that I've ever managed because, unlike being a classroom teacher where you're kind of the boss in your room, or even student services where you get to know the kids and you get to know the complex families, there are so many moving parts to an education support program and I think for me, the first thing I did was also help people in the school understand what this is going to look like, because it's one of those spaces where everyone I have worked with is a really good person. But it's a space that a lot of people aren't sure about. They're unsure what it's going to look like. They're unsure about how those kids are going to cope in a large mainstream environment. So I think part of it is helping people to articulate what they're worried about and then working together to kind of come up with a plan about what inclusion is going to look like.

Brooke McFarlane: 5:50

And the kids have just absolutely thrived we've just finished our first year but to see those students transition from how they started with us at the beginning of the year to the end of the year. You know they've just done amazingly, and it because of the support of the whole school. You know the other mainstream students, our canteen ladies, our office staff it's really everyone being on that same page and I think sharing that vision with your team and the team could be the whole school, or whoever it is. That's, if you can get that right, those little hiccups you have along the way are so much easier because you're all working towards the same goal. I guess.

Jenny Cole: 6:29

Do you think that having status in the school so you're an associate principal, so you are, you know, one of the senior leadership team do you think that's made a difference with the inclusion program, making sure that it's working?

Brooke McFarlane: 6:42

The status of being, you know, a boss in the school is something that I don't sit well with. That I'm always, if the phones are ringing and all the office staff are busy, I'm picking up the phone. If a kid needs an ice pack, I'm doing that. If there's an extra duty to be had, I do it. I certainly don't think that just because you're an administrator, you are exempt from doing what everyone else has to do, and I certainly don't think if you wouldn't do it yourself, then you shouldn't be asking other people to do it either.

Brooke McFarlane: 7:11

For me, I guess it's that leading by example and so you know, and also sharing that having being a level four and still not having all those answers, it's okay to say that to people and to reach out to people who are more expertise. You know, certainly I've got education assistants in my school who've got 20 years experience working with young people with disabilities. They're more of an expert about the on the ground stuff than I will ever be, and it's okay to say actually, have you got some suggestions? Reaching out to a therapist? It's okay to not have the answers as long as we keep moving forward. I think if I was to give up, I'm very mindful about maintaining optimism about things as well. Anyone might not feel it so much, because if I wasn't presenting as optimistic, I think that then puts fear in your team as well.

Jenny Cole: 7:57

Yeah, great, great observation. Moving out of a classroom and into leadership roles, there's a dynamic change of mindset, there's a change of level of control. Did you feel that? Is that something you noticed as you were moving into leadership?

Brooke McFarlane: 8:12

Oh, a hundred percent. And if I look down, it's because I've made myself a few notes here, because otherwise I'll forget everything. Certainly understanding and I don't think I did necessarily when I left the classroom, because when you're that really experienced competent classroom teacher, you're really really experienced competent classroom teacher you're really in that unconsciously skilled space and so things are working, because you think they're just working, because you're not aware of it, but you really move out of that space unconsciously and you become all too aware that the things you used to be able to play off in your classroom don't exist anymore.

Brooke McFarlane: 8:45

And so I think for me, probably those first couple of years, I fell into that trap of trying to maintain control by doing things for other people and rather than helping people and empowering people to step up and do I was always saying yes to things.

Brooke McFarlane: 9:01

I had a real difficulty in saying no. So I found myself doing things that were not my job. I was still kind of straddling. I had a foot in that classroom, I was still trying to keep a bit of control over certain things that were happening at a classroom level whilst trying to maintain, and I think all that did was stretch me really thin. It probably didn't empower the people in my team. They probably felt that I was bossy and micromanaging and wanted everything kind of done my way, which on reflection now I realised was all about me feeling that sense of connection and control that I had in the classroom, because you don't have that when you kind of jump onto that greater scale. And I think that's when I sort of got into that space about actively seeking out professional learning that didn't just teach me things but helped me to understand myself Okay.

Jenny Cole: 9:49

You gave me a bit of, in the information you sent to me, you gave me some examples of the professional learning that you did. That helped you understand yourself. This might be a really good time to talk about that. So what sorts of professional learning did you do and what did it teach you?

Brooke McFarlane: 10:03

So I guess, it sort of started as a conversation with another school administrator that I was working with and we had spent a lot of time talking about our blind spots and what were our blind spots, and I'd never really sort of thought about what my blind spots were. You just, you know you do what you do and it's working, so you keep doing. But it took someone I think brave enough to say know you've got this blind spot. Are you aware that's something about you? So I started to look at PL. That really was about self-development. Something I had struggled with was, you know, sitting with those feelings of uncomfortableness and I think that fed into the fact that I often was doing things for people, because it made me feel uncomfortable to say to someone hey, you haven't done this, or I've asked you to do this, or what's the struggle here. And that was more about me and I think so.

Brooke McFarlane: 10:50

I went and did some disc leadership. I did disc with you, I did print, which really helped me, and I think I knew lots about my strengths. That's something I'd always done with kids. But it was those shadow traits of you know what happens when you're in times of stress. I went and did the Dare to Lead three-day course.

Brooke McFarlane: 11:09

It was right before the pandemic and that, I think, just allowed me a space to pull all of those things together and sort of tie them together and go yeah, this is, I guess, who I am as a leader, and it gave me permission to let go of the assumption I had that leaders looked a certain way in schools and I think as a system we've really moved away from that kind of very masculine sort of space of leadership which you know current politics we seem to be going back there, but that's a podcast for another day but certainly, at a system level, I think we're really more about looking after our team as people and making sure their needs are being met and providing safe psychological spaces for them.

Brooke McFarlane: 11:50

But that all of the PL has helped me, I think, develop a my own clarity of leadership around. You know, it's about looking after people and it's okay to be a soft leader I hate, I hate that term but it's okay to care about the people in your team because if you can get that right, then all the other stuff will happen, naturally, anyway.

Jenny Cole: 12:10

Yeah, processes are important, but people make processes work and if the people aren't good, yeah.

Brooke McFarlane: 12:17

And I think it gives you as a leader permission to. You know there's a whole movement about you know about the let them kind of stuff, but it really does go. Actually the why this person is doing it isn't important and it's not my job to understand that or to hypothesise, and I think that's a trap sometimes very early on in leadership is that I got kind of in my head about you know, why are they doing this? You know, and that's actually not. Important really is to understand why it's. You know like well, let's, and if you want to know, then just ask the person. It's just when in these hours ruminating over people do the things they do. Maybe that's why we love crime is because we love the why.

Jenny Cole: 12:53

The investigation.

Brooke McFarlane: 12:55

But in a school sense the why is actually not that important.

Jenny Cole: 13:04

No, and the extension of why are they doing? That is often if you are an insecure leader it's why are they doing that to me? They're not doing it to you. They might be doing it vaguely because of you, but it's rarely intentional. It's often something to do with them that's got nothing to do with you.

Brooke McFarlane: 13:15

Absolutely. And I think the further I've got into my leadership journey I've been able to acknowledge that some of that stuff is around my own ego and when you let go of that you're like people will do what people do. And maybe it comes from working with those more challenging kids where you can never really know why a young person with a disability is presenting, and so you stop hypothesising because you can only deal with what's in front of you and I think that's kind of helped me about just working with staff as well Like that's actually not important. I can only deal with what's presented in front of me and I have to let go of it because it's actually not about me. And I think sometimes leaders fall into the trap of thinking it's about them and it's actually not.

Jenny Cole: 13:58

And some of that discomfort that you talked about. You know. So running around doing everything for everybody is it's often about. If I don't, they're going to think badly about me or I'm going to let them down and all of those things feel uncomfortable and so you overperform. So you said you got some feedback about your blind spots. Are you brave enough to share what some of those blind spots were?

Brooke McFarlane: 14:19

Oh, yes, and I think it came at the time that I did the print stuff and I was spending a lot of time thinking about that, those shadow traits and I'm sure people who've worked with me for a long time would understand that under times of stress I feel I'm using humour, but I actually use sarcasm quite a lot, and that's not something that everybody enjoys. No, no, I think sarcasm's one of them. I can become quite highly critical of other people. You know it's the why aren't you doing it my way stuff, and I think that can manifest itself in being a bit micromanaging with people. So just above my desk on my notice board, I have all those shadow traits, oh wow.

Brooke McFarlane: 16:26

So it's a good reminder because when I find myself in times of stress, it's just there at my eye level, like you're slipping into control, sarcasm, being hypercritical of other people, being a little bit gossipy, and I think you and I have talked a little bit about that blaming but disguising it as gossip to try and get validation of why you're saying the things that you're saying, and I think that that's a really unhelpful thing. And I think in school schools are like I said in my bio, schools are wonderful places but it's a behavior which I'm sure isn't just in schools. But it happens that sort of after school vent that actually turns into some really nasty stuff sometimes, and that's a place that I will go quite quickly if I don't manage myself.

Jenny Cole: 17:11

Yeah, and that's that Brené's common enemy intimacy. We think once we're having a vent about the same person, that's going to bond you and I. But it actually breaks trust Because I know when you go and talk to somebody else I'm thinking, oh, what's Brooke saying about me?

Brooke McFarlane: 17:25

Absolutely, and I think that's a big thing I took away from that. Training is about, you know, is this my story to share? People will share that they're having tough times and you might feel that by sharing that, you're helping to impart empathy on someone else. But is it a power lever? You're trying to say well, you know, I have all this secret information about someone and sometimes it's not relevant to share that with other people. And I think it's important that we catch ourselves because, like you said, if I'm doing it about someone else, then they're thinking that I'm doing it about other people as well, correct?

Jenny Cole: 17:58

Thank you for being brave and going there. We share the need. I know that I go to sarcasm really quickly and that I didn't know that though when I was a leader. It took me too long to work that out, so well done for working it out well before I did.

Brooke McFarlane: 18:12

It's really hard too, because my whole family dynamic, our love language, is that we give each other a hard time, and sometimes it's about not everyone enjoys being roasted constantly, and when you work with teenagers they do it all the time as well. So sort of in an environment where everyone's just kind of giving each other a hard time and you forget that not everyone has got that crusty outer layer where you're like, oh okay.

Jenny Cole: 18:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and sometimes it is just bullying. I noticed this quite a lot. I don't seem to say it much in primary, but in secondary, and I'll be running a workshop and someone, sometimes a bloke, will say something very sarcastic and very kind of roasting and I'm like, no, that's not nice, that just made it shuts down the conversation. It's made you feel better for a moment, but everybody else is sucked the air out of the room.

Brooke McFarlane: 19:00

Yeah, and you're right, it really is a high school thing. And my sister, who's a primary school principal, she said you can always tell in any room who the high school teachers are. Because she said there's that dynamic and I don't know whether it's because we are around teenagers all the time, but it's also about that. We're an adult and I guess we have to sort of model for them how we want the world to be Exactly so.

Jenny Cole: 19:22

You're all about creating safe spaces for students, particularly students with disabilities, but also inclusive environments for culturally safe spaces for Aboriginal students. Talk to me about how you've done that and what that might look like in your current role.

Brooke McFarlane: 19:40

So I guess, from a family perspective, my dad is Aboriginal, so my sister and I do identify as Aboriginal people and we were not raised in schools where it was something that you would share with people Certainly that because we're fairer skinned, we can walk in both worlds and growing up in a space where you might mention it to someone and people would say, oh, but you don't look it, so why would you tell people? The more I got to know in schools, that culture is really pervasive across, I guess, australia as a whole, realising that we had all these young people who avoided schools, who were underachieving, families that had trauma associated with schools. It was really about and when I was a classroom teacher, I also had great leaders in my school who this was a priority for them, and so it was about looking at those educational outcomes and understanding what the components were for effective, safe learning environments. So if we could do it in my classroom, imagine the impact if we could make the whole school feel like this. So I think this has been something where you've just got to be real and authentic. You've got to listen, you have to be okay with saying to families we got this wrong and not to go back to the way of well, we're the school, so we're always right. You know it's okay to apologise and go. Yeah, how that teacher dealt with this situation was not okay and we're going to deal with it.

Brooke McFarlane: 21:10

And that's an uncomfortable space, I think, for schools to be in, because I think traditionally it's not something. The school was the place where everyone was right. I think we're shifting very much away from that now, which is amazing, because when you apologise for someone, when something's gone wrong, instead of trying to defend your position, it just diffuses things. And so all of a sudden, you are saying to parents I'm interested in hearing your story. You're saying to kids tell me what was happening for you in that moment and I'm here to listen and just sitting in. That it's not a band-aid fix. I think it has to. You have to work with the community. You have to build that trust that for families and the community that their stories, what they're bringing to our space, is valued.

Brooke McFarlane: 21:58

And it's about then working with teachers and challenging some of the attitudes and values. That it's not something we talk about. We certainly are not with saying we have these biases that exist in us. It's an uncomfortable and difficult conversation to have, but I think it's a necessary one that we all have these unconscious biases and we have to call each other out on them because if we don't, then those attitudes are allowed to permeate the school. And I think when families and communities see that you're doing that with authenticity and you're not afraid to say to people look, what you did wasn't okay, that's opening the door to the conversation.

Brooke McFarlane: 22:40

And then it's about empowering young people, so giving them a voice. So certainly, at another school I worked at, we had a very multicultural population and we had this student leadership team which was not reflective of the cultural complexity of the school. So then we sort of created an offshoot, which was the multicultural student leadership and they sort of had a different role in the school but all of a sudden, when there was any issues around that, they were the experts in that, instead of a group of middle class, mostly white people trying to have a conversation with a group of students who have this background. We will never understand. We gave them the opportunity to kind of step into their power and I think that's what I've learned is that it's got to come from the bottom up rather than the top down.

Jenny Cole: 23:25

It needs to be supported by the top, otherwise the bottom won't exist, but it needs to come from the bottom. And student voice, so important. As you were talking, I was trying not to be distracted by my thought, but my thought was around when you talked about biases and right at the very beginning you said you identify as an Aboriginal woman and people said, oh, you don't look Aboriginal, so why would you even mention it? And that is a classic bias around.

Jenny Cole: 23:52

oh, you're going to be seen differently. We're going to treat you differently because of your race and your background, and I'm like how such those just subtle things where people think they're supporting you where actually that in fact was racist.

Brooke McFarlane: 24:05

And even just working with young people with disabilities who don't have any cognitive impairment, but that people speak to them like they're babies and you have to say, oh, they're a 14-year-old young person. They have the same thoughts and feelings and body experiences and all that that the mainstream kid does, and it's that it comes from a place of wanting to make the other person feel better. It actually isn't making that young person feel better, but you're to talk to them like this. You know they're not a baby.

Jenny Cole: 24:34

They have autism. That's exactly right. So you said in the information that you sent us that you, like most teachers, love seeing those light bulb moments. Working specifically with kids with disabilities, sometimes they're trickier to see. Do you want to share how you build an inclusive environment and how you make sure that you're noticing those light bulb moments with those kids?

Brooke McFarlane: 24:58

So I work with some amazing staff who do a phenomenal job with our young people, and I always try at least once a day to get into a classroom so that I can see you know what they're doing, because that's when I think you notice those things. And so we were doing cooking with the kids and it started off with very basic things like putting cereal in a bowl, those sorts of things. We started with breakfast and introducing those small that they're not used to doing. And then I got this beautiful email from a mum saying that her son had come home you know 13 and said that he was going to cook them dinner. And she was like, oh, okay, this is a huge thing, but that he was going to cook them scrambled eggs. And she said he's never eaten eggs in his whole entire life. And what miracle had the teacher done? Because who is this kid? One, he wants to cook for it and two, he wants to cook eggs and up until then had never tried eggs.

Brooke McFarlane: 25:53

But the power of inclusion was that I'm looking around the room and everyone's eating eggs. You know, some of them were smothered in a lot of tomato sauce. That's okay, everyone was trying eggs. And those little moments which, you know, the, in the scheme of a lot of other places, wouldn't mean anything, but for that kid that is the hugest hurdle for him to have tried something and eaten something and then be able to take that home and share with his parent. They're the little wins that get you through, you know it's. You start off with the student who likes to come and visit you every day and he used to just come down and open the door and then by the end of it he's knocking and he's saying excuse me, have you got five minutes? All those things, I think they're the little things that get you through the days where you don't get the wins. You know, yes, yes, when there's plenty of other worse things happening. Yes, absolutely, when you feel like you're throwing everything in the kitchen sink at a problem and it doesn't seem to be getting better. Keeping your eye on those little wins are what gets you through.

Brooke McFarlane: 26:52

And every day those kids just kids in general amaze me. You know, teenagers are the funniest humans in the world to work with. There's not a day where I don't come home with a funny story or you know something that makes me chuckle, because they just teenagers live life without any filter and, yeah, they're super offensive some of the time. But what an amazing way to live, you know. I think they live in a way that everyone wishes we could, where we just say every thought that comes into our head and do whatever we want. They live with such fullness and I think that's why I love teenagers as well, because I think, on an energy level, that really spooks me. It's lovely going to visit primary schools, but yeah, it just doesn't do it for me.

Jenny Cole: 27:36

No fair enough, fair enough, and I reckon it's probably developmental, because four-year-olds are exactly the same and 80-year-olds they lose their filter as well. I just think it's fabulous. And then if you layer over disability, where perhaps that filter never existed, it can be delightful, can be really delightful.

Brooke McFarlane: 27:53

Oh look, you've got to have a reasonably thick skin and they tell me pretty quick, smart, if there's things that they one don't like about me or don't like about my outfit but it's okay, you certainly got to have a robust sense of self-worth, because they're going to. Absolutely, because on the flip side they also tell you how much they love you and all those sorts of things, and that's really lovely to hear as well Gorgeous.

Jenny Cole: 28:17

So it's really obvious from listening to you you spend a lot of time with students and staff. I suppose the flip side of that is how do you get the other stuff done? Where does the processes and the planning and all of those things happen? How do you manage that?

Brooke McFarlane: 28:32

Look it's the least favourite part of my job is paperwork and data entry and those sorts of things. But what I've learnt about myself and it was actually a trick I think I picked up at one of your POs was about scheduling time in my calendar. Where I'm unavailable, and that has really changed my life is that scheduling things and in fact I was sharing it with someone else the other day. I was like just put yourself in 20 minutes and it's to catch up on your emails or make those calls you've been putting off making. I try and leave work by a certain time every day so I try not to make meetings after school so then I can finish the day, wind up emails, paperwork. I put reminders in my calendar all the time. Unfortunately, my desk is a sea of post-it notes, which doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me. And then you know I've got a big whiteboard where I have a timeline of where things are due. I need things where I can see them, and that doesn't work for everyone. You know my desktop would induce anxiety in a lot of people, but I need things where I can see them. So they're on my board. I've got post-its because otherwise, you know, my brain's just trimming that away because if I'm allowed to I'll really get caught up in the people stuff, because that's what brings me joy and it's very easy to put that aside.

Brooke McFarlane: 29:49

I try and make all of my parents' phone calls at the end of the day, so they're not hanging over my head, because that was a trap I used to fall in. I'd go, I'll do it in the morning, when I'm not tired, except the morning would come and then more problems. And then all of a sudden the pile of phone calls is up here. But making those proactive or preemptive phone calls, I think at the end of the day, switching off my emails, so not. Or preemptive phone calls, I think, at the end of the day, switching off my emails, so not checking my emails at nighttime. And that's only something I've probably done in the last couple of years because it was really affecting the way that I was living at home with my family. It only takes that one email from that one parent to really derail your whole evening. So it's about really got to set boundaries that work for yourself.

Brooke McFarlane: 30:30

You know there's lots of these effective leader type, stephen Covey type stuff, you know, but you've got to find what works for you. An old fashioned diary also works for me too. I think writing things down helps me. People take minutes on laptops. That's no good for me. That real kind of hand brain connection stuff works for me.

Brooke McFarlane: 30:49

So I think it's a bit of trial and error, but also having people on my team to keep me accountable. So when we have the certain data thing, like we do at NCCD or whatever, I've got an amazing learning support coordinator who is super conscientious and she keeps me on track like, have you done that this? And I'm like, oh no, thank you for reminding me and taking that with grace and actually saying to people in my team my strength is not this, it's your strength. So you've got to check in on me and say, hey, you said you were going to be doing that by this time. You haven't done it, and so I think that's really important to build building having that team, the diversity in your team where you can check in on each other and hold each other accountable for things and being able to say, yeah, thank you for reminding me, because that stuff will never be a priority for me.

Jenny Cole: 31:38

No, and just the same. But some people who are very process driven, they will forget to get up out of their chair and go visit somebody. So it's about you know. We all have our strengths, and I'm hearing you say that you know what the strengths of your team are, but we also have our shadow sides, or our weaknesses, where it's okay to remind us. For you, have you done that form? No, and for others it's. Have you gone and spoken to that person?

Brooke McFarlane: 32:02

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's. I think you know that, knowing that disc stuff, when you're a big picture thinker, you're not so worried about the details, but for the people who love details, that's a terrifying way to operate and I think when you know that about yourself, it's that you have to just get more flexible. I think with working across those styles and you get better as the longer that you do, and I think you get better at knowing what's important and also what's urgent, so being able to spread your time. I think you just get better at with it as you get on in your journey, because those things that used to take a lot of remembering just become part of your day-to-day routine.

Jenny Cole: 32:41

It's just the same I say to young leaders. I say I want you to think back to when you wrote your first set of reports.

Jenny Cole: 32:47

They took forever and then the next time you did it, it took slightly less than forever. And then you get to the point. No one ever gets back brilliant at it, but you get faster. You've got some banks of words and all of those sorts of things. Likewise with your leadership skills. The more you have those tricky conversations or the more times you have to submit that data, it just gets faster and more efficient. It's never perfect, but yeah you get there.

Brooke McFarlane: 33:11

Yeah, I mean, you feel super mechanical at Excel spreadsheet and I will never be best friends and I'm forever having to say what have I done? And someone's like you've just got a filter on. I was like I don't even know what that means. Can someone just do it for me? But I'm getting better at it. I don't think I'll ever love an Excel spreadsheet, but I know people that do and I make friends with them, yeah correct.

Jenny Cole: 33:42

And so that brings me to what's the best advice you were ever given, or the worst advice you were given.

Brooke McFarlane: 33:45

Oh, okay, I think the best advice I was ever given was that in order to manage others effectively, you have to manage yourself, and I think it's exactly the same as what we say to teachers about managing kids in classrooms If you're escalated, if you're not in a space and put off that conversation, you can't control what they do. You can't control what they do. You can only control. So I think that's really important in terms of the day-to-day stuff. But I think if you live in your values and I think if everyone know what your values are and what's your why for being there and for everyone it's different and I think no one's why is more important than other people's but I think if you live your why, everything you do at the heart of it is authentic and people believe what you're doing, then that's people will come along for the ride with you. It's when you try and impersonate, emulate the latest new shiny thing that people grab onto that doesn't. I think for me it's okay to be who you are and you want to harness the power of the things about yourself that work, the things that don't, or the challenges that you have. You know managing those. It's okay to make mistakes. In fact, it's really important that you do make mistakes and you own them in front of your team, because if you present this perfectly shiny, glossy version of yourself all the time, that's not authentic and real. Likewise, you also don't want to every day be like, oh my God, this is the worst day of my life, because that's not putting confidence in your team either.

Brooke McFarlane: 35:15

So I think in terms of a leader, but I think when I was a classroom teacher and this when I worked with Semby I used to say this all the time I read this amazing. It was just a short little article about new teachers starting in schools, and the author used this notion of you might go into a school and there's these, what she called walnut trees, and now these teachers that have been there a really long time and they made you feel safe. But the thing about walnut trees is that they have these roots that kind of kill everything around them and nothing thrives and grows. And she talked about, yeah, marigold, and they're like a companion plant and they help everything else to thrive, and so I thought it's really not about that whole. This is how we've done things. I've been here for a really long time because you can really get stuck in that trap.

Brooke McFarlane: 36:00

So I think making that switch is finding people, that when you look around, not at that person, but the people around them, because if those people are thriving, that's the person you want to be with. You don't want to be with the person who looks like they've got it together, but if the people around them aren't thriving, that's not the person you want to be with. You know it's the best. Leaders are those that make other people grow, not just boss everybody around and seem to have it all together. I think it's, for me, the right type of leader. It's those people that have a team of people around them that are, you know, living their best lives and thriving and growing and are being challenged and love coming to work, because that's what a good leader will give their team the ability to love coming to work.

Jenny Cole: 36:44

Oh, that is such lovely advice. Find the people that are making other people thrive and hang out with them. I love it. I think that is a perfect way to finish

Brooke McFarlane: 36:55

Was that a nice little segue at the end there, Jen.

Jenny Cole: 36:57

No, it was a beautiful segue. Th ere's nothing like a segue, Brooke McFarlane. It is always an absolute pleasure. You just bring such joy and enthusiasm to the work you do, so thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.

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