Leadership and Growth in Primary Education with Robyn Hutchins

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm Jenny Cole, your host, and it is my pleasure today to be joined by Robyn Hutchins, who is currently the principal of a medium-sized primary school on the Gold Coast. Welcome, Robyn.

Robyn Hutchins: 1:15

Hi, thank you for having me.

Jenny Cole: 1:18

Absolute pleasure. Robyn, I know you came to teaching in your late 20s after seven or so years in the US doing a number of roles, and it's probably fair to say that your path to leadership wasn't exactly textbook. I'd love for you to share your career journey with those who are listening to us today.

Robyn Hutchins: 1:38

Thank you. So yes, I did come to it in my late 20s. I actually started primary teaching straight out of high school, but at that point I wasn't ready to become a teacher. So after a year I dropped out and went traveling. Then in my late 20s, I was actually while pregnant with my first daughter. I thought, no, I need a career change and a direction here. So I came to started high school teaching and, as we all do, I graduated as an English history teacher and ended up teaching math.

Robyn Hutchins: 2:04

So, of course, high school that tends to happen quite a bit but taught for a number of years and then gradually decided to. I wanted a bit more than just a classroom teacher. So I took on opportunities within the school like year coordinator and sports coordinator and different things. And then there was an opportunity within the school. I was to take on a hod role when our head of department had to step out quite suddenly, and even though I felt highly unqualified, I had the support of a lot of the teaching staff around me because they were my peers and they knew me. So I had the encouragement to do that. And once within the role I went oh, this is not so hard, I can do this, and so that led to a number of other head of department roles. I got brave and stepped outside the school and eventually it was the belief of a principal in me who said you're ready for the next step after a number of years. So after about 15 years of medium roles, I took on a deputy principal role and stepped into that and did that for a number of years. Well, it was in a medium high school and while we were there, the population of the high school exploded under his leadership and so it grew by about 700 kids in three years, which is phenomenal and it's now over 2000 kids. And then, after a number of years, I was watching him going. I can, I can do that, I can make those decisions. So again, it took a lot of courage and I got brave and went for a principal role, not expecting to get it. And, lo and behold, it was in a primary school at that point and I was high school based. And, lo and behold, I got it. So, yeah, I've now been there for coming up on. It's almost three years now and it's the best move I've ever made. It's kind of come full circle back into primary school where I started all those years ago, but I feel like now is where I'm where I needed to be.

Jenny Cole: 3:49

That's so interesting. Let's dig into that a little bit. The move from high school to primary school it's one of the things that I say to people is that you can move between sectors, systems and primary, absolutely yeah. Talk to us about what made you do that and what made you think that you could come back into a primary role.

Robyn Hutchins: 4:05

So even in the secondary I always gravitated towards early secondary. So year seven and eight. In Queensland a number of years ago they did the flying start where they took year seven from primary school into high school and I was key part of that process within the high school I was at and that whole brain development in that middle years fascinates me. So I've always worked across that transition point between primary to secondary. I've always worked really closely with our local primary schools in terms of curriculum alignment, in terms of staffing, in terms of professional development, so keeping my finger on the pulse of what was important to them, and then also looked for any PD opportunities I could across that space.

Robyn Hutchins: 4:46

So when the opportunity came up and I knew a lot of the priorities in the primary school world at the time because I'd been hearing about them from the primary schools I'd been working so closely with education is education. You can absolutely work across sectors, you don't need to be afraid. I have a number of people now say to me oh, I could never work in high school because they're big and scary. I'm like, ultimately they're kids. Year 12s love stickers as much as year two students do. So they're just kids, they're all kids.

Jenny Cole: 5:11

Yes, and by the time you get to a senior leadership role, you don't have to be the expert on early childhood curriculum. Hopefully you've got an expert running the processes and procedures around. That, which kind of makes me curious. Also because you said in the information that you sent to me that you know that your DISC style is S steadiness and supportiveness, which goes against some of the words that you've already used, like brave and taking chances and so forth. What are some of the qualities of a DISC S and what do you have? What do you bring with that style of leadership?

Robyn Hutchins: 5:45

So when I started in my role as a principal, I stepped into the school mid-year, so it was the start of semester two and I said to the staff because they'd had a number of principals over the past five years I said to them I'm not going to come in and change anything. I'm going to watch, I'm going to observe, I'm going to learn from what you're currently doing. I'm not the expert here and it's that steadiness and calmness that I could bring in that allowed me to observe really, really closely to see what was working in the school and then put my finger on a number of areas that I wanted to improve and could build that into the start of the next day, the professional development day, so say this is the direction I want to take the school, this is the next steps that I see that we need to achieve the next lift in our data and therefore this is the direction I want to take and lined with that is highly relational. So when I stepped into the role, I had DPs that weren't necessarily working seamlessly together. They were both lovely people individually but had very, very different styles of working and ways of working.

Robyn Hutchins: 6:47

So a big part of my first year there was to bring cohesion to my leadership team and I worked with my coach around what that might look like and how to do that without hurting anybody's personalities. And again, somebody that might be a D or an I might come in and just steamroll, and I've watched people my last principal was very much a D and just had this big picture came in, did things and it was kind of up to me and the leadership team to bring all the pieces together and smooth all the feathers along the way. So I've learned how to do that while slowly, slowly taking progress. And to me that's when the best progress happens, is when you do it slow, steady and in a forward direction and sort of bring everyone along with you rather than just steamroll your way 10 steps ahead of everyone else.

Jenny Cole: 7:34

Yeah, those Ds. They make fast progress. Sometimes it's absolutely in the right direction, but they steamroll over a bunch of people in the meantime. Often, ss bring those lovely relational skills and bring people along. One of the criticisms, though, is sometimes they can be too slow, too caring, too compassionate. Have you found that, and how do you overcome it?

Robyn Hutchins: 7:58

It's had to be a juggle when I first stepped into a deputy position, so I was hired because I had those relational skills that he knew he didn't have, and so it was very much.

Robyn Hutchins: 8:08

I've made the changes and now I need someone behind me to smooth out everybody and make it all okay again.

Robyn Hutchins: 8:15

And he said to me at the time your area of growth that you really need to work on are those tough conversations and your speed at which you make change, and so that when I was a DP, a deputy principal, that was a lot of the area where I focused my work.

Robyn Hutchins: 8:30

So, while those tough conversations are hard to have, I can have them now and I can have them quite easily and seamlessly. I don't need to do the massive amount of preparation I once had to do with them, because clear is kind and I live by that motto that if you give someone the feedback in a timely manner that they need to hear and you're clear about what wasn't working and what you need to improve them on, you're kind to them and their development and their own growth. And then also that speed of change. It's something where I'm just constantly watching and making sure I'm taking those steps forward at a speed that's making sure people are mostly keeping up with me. You're never going to have 100% of the people keeping up with you, but as long as I'm moving forward and my data is telling me that, I know that I'm moving at an okay pace.

Jenny Cole: 9:13

Yeah, lovely. And so you sound so self-aware and self-reflective. Where does that come from?

Robyn Hutchins: 9:19

A lot of past personal history where in my early twenties, when I, before I came to teaching, I had a bit of a turmoil in my personal life and, because I was living overseas and living so far away from my family, I had to be a bit more self-reliant. And it's also been about having those cheerleaders and looking for those mentors in your team that, like even today, before coming on this, I was a bit nervous. So I went to someone and said give me a pep talk. Yes, it's having those people in your corner that you know are going to say the right thing at the right time. I make sure, and it's a tough thing, but when I'm looking for people in my leadership teams to say I've got a vacancy in the team that I need to fill, I will look for the gaps in my team. So it may be someone that is an I and that person.

Robyn Hutchins: 10:04

That's really about the details and the data and the dot, the I's cross the T's, and that that's not me. I fully admit that and they really annoy me, I have to say, because they stop you every step of the way and go but, but, but, but. I'm well aware that they play a really key part in my team. So if I don't have one of them in my team, I will deliberately look for someone like that who can fill that gap and make sure that we have everything being covered that we need covered.

Robyn Hutchins: 10:31

So it is about making sure you've got the right, you're surrounding yourself with the right people, that you've got your cheerleaders in the team, that you've got the people that will kick your butt if you need your butt kicked. You've got the people that will make sure your I's are dotted and your T's are crossed. And then you've got the people. Because I'm not a really fast moving person, but I will look to someone who will make sure that I've got a really good friend that's also a principal and we became principals at very close times and were previously deputies together and she's the one I'll go to and bounce ideas off and go. Am I heading in the right direction? Yep, great Move forward. So you make sure that you've got all those people around you to fill all those gaps.

Jenny Cole: 11:06

Absolutely, and I've heard people talk about it as your board of directors. It's like your personal. It's not only your square squad and your cheer squad. These are the people who can give you tough feedback, fill in your gaps, give you sage advice, but who are also, you know, sometimes they're at a similar stage to you and they can say this is what I tried, or whatever. So you need a variety of people, and I think when I say network, people get a bit. They think about a glass of wine and standing up and making small talk, but a network are those people around you, as you so eloquently said, who make you the best that you can be.

Robyn Hutchins: 11:42

Yeah, and particularly as a female in such a male dominated industry, and I hate to go there, but it's just a plain fact.

Robyn Hutchins: 11:50

We really need that we don't have, I'm guilty of it, Like even today I had imposter syndrome. I've got nothing to say that anybody wants to hear. But you need those people around you that are going to, that are sort of at the same step as you or close to it or maybe a year or two ahead of you and and have walked that path before and can be that mentor or guide for you or that sounding board, so that you have experience around you or that you're experiencing things at the same time and you can network with them regularly, check in with them. I've got a beautiful team that we check in once a term and we're all at roughly the same part in our leadership journey. There's one that's slightly ahead of us but because she's a smaller school, we just learn from each other and it's the most phenomenal professional development I could have asked for, far better than anything I could genuinely pay for, because they know me, they know my school situation and we're all at similar levels and we can cheer each other on.

Jenny Cole: 12:44

Yeah, I think sometimes, if we're really lucky, we have that as teachers we'll find a group of besties that we really get along with and we trade and share and we might move schools and they're still your friends. You catch up with them on the holidays and then we move into a leadership role and we sometimes there's that old adage that it feels a bit lonely. But I love the way that you've talked about your collegiate network, about supporting each other, particularly if you're in a similar stage in your career.

Robyn Hutchins: 13:12

Leadership is very lonely and I felt that every step that you move up and you described it very well in that you've got teacher besties and you might have a large network of them and as you move up there's less and less people.

Robyn Hutchins: 13:23

And I was always trained that you never complain down, that you can complain at level but you never complain down, and so by the time you're a principal, there's only one of you in the school and you've got nobody because you're not going to complain down to your DPs and so there's nobody.

Robyn Hutchins: 13:37

That when you're in really tricky situations you don't have anybody in your school that you can go to. Hence you need to go out of the school and have those trusted other people that you can have those real confidential conversations, because a lot of the stuff in leadership is confidential and therefore it makes it extra lonely. And you need those people in your network that you can reach out to and that can give you that advice or be that sounding board. Even if you've just had a terrible day. Your partner can give you like my partner's not in education so he can give me some sort of emotional support, but not that professional support that I quite often need. So you need those networks to make sure that you have support to keep you, so that you aren't lonely, because it is lonely.

Jenny Cole: 14:18

You talk a lot about ensuring the well-being of staff and which is the buzzword, but it's about balance.

Jenny Cole: 14:25

You've got a large family. You've got plenty of commitments outside of work. How do you make that happen and how do you make sure people prioritize, that it's not all work, that they make sure that there's a balance for a better and I don't have a better word than that, but you know what I mean no, it's crucial because when I first stepped up into a true school leadership so into deputy I was quite often working, so I'd work all day.

Robyn Hutchins: 14:49

I have four kids now. My oldest is 18 and my youngest is four, so I've had one, that's just graduated from year 12 and one that's about to start.

Robyn Hutchins: 14:58

So full gamut, including a learner driver, which is quite scary, but well-being wise, I have learned through that that I need to really make sure that I separate work and home for my own mental health. So for me personally, in my leadership when I was first DP, I would quite often work all day, come home, deal with the kids for a couple of hours and then jump back on my laptop and I'd be doing emails till all hours of the night. And it got to the point where my principal said enough, you're stressing the staff out when you're sending emails at 10 o'clock at night because they think they're supposed to be reading it. So you need to deal with that and stop doing that. And I thought well, I'm never going to get through my workload if I stop doing it. So I just put on out of office or delay send. So but again, I think in early leadership that is necessary. You do need to work those hours to get that grounding and to get that experience under your belt.

Robyn Hutchins: 15:49

But the more I've moved up, I do things to protect my time now. So I don't have my work emails pop up on my phone, no notifications. So if I want to see my work emails, I actively have to log in to see them. When I come home, because I've got a four-year-old, my time needs to be at home and I need to be focused on home and I need to be fair to my family and I need to be focused on home and I need to be fair to my family and therefore I don't, unless it's absolutely necessary, do work at home. It might change a bit next year when she starts school, but I'm hoping she'll do the nice early bedtime, so maybe if I need to do an hour of work, I can do that. But I'm also conscious I need my full sleep, so therefore I need to close my laptop at a set time to make sure I go to bed. Otherwise I'm a shocking insomniac and I will lay there all night and dwell on things that I had. That said, when I do am facing a tough situation. There's times where I just won't access my emails outside of work because I don't need that mental stress. Then I know it will do that to me. So work is work, home is home, and I will keep the two as separate as I possibly can.

Robyn Hutchins: 16:45

I say the same to my staff. I don't contact them on the holidays. Unless it's absolutely necessary, I encourage them to put their out of office on on holidays or if they're taking leave, I make sure that they get out of there. We do wellbeing meetings once a term at work. So that is an hour where they can either get together and do something that supports their wellbeing so we've had yoga or e-games, or we simply sit around and chat or they can go home and take that extra hour. If that's what that fills their wellbeing. They can do that once a term.

Robyn Hutchins: 17:17

So lots of little things, but the big thing is really giving them the okay that it's okay, Like we work really, really hard in the education world. It is okay to log off at 4pm and get out of there. I'm not expecting you to be there at five o'clock at night or to be in at seven o'clock in the morning, but, that said, if that's your wellbeing and you want to get there at seven so you can leave at three, that's okay too. So I'm definitely not a car park watcher. Their time is their time, but I do expect the most of them when they're there.

Jenny Cole: 17:46

Yeah, so talk to me a little bit about that. I know that you have very high expectations for your staff. So when they are there and they're focused, what are some of those expectations and how do you hold people to them? How do you encourage getting the best out of your team?

Robyn Hutchins: 18:04

Yeah, so we work with a student's first mentality. So every decision I do, everything I do, will be a student's first, not staff first, as much as I care about staff wellbeing, it's students first. And every decision we do in the school will think what is right for the students. So if they're facing a tough situation with a parent, for example, I will back them a hundred percent, but I'll also push them to think about it from a student's perspective. So what is right for this student? Do they need you to provide additional work or do they need you to actually contact their parents on a regular basis so the parent can be more informed, so that they can be supporting at home? So it's more just with the high expectations. I'm kind of lucky at the moment because we do work in a school that has quite a high ICSEA and therefore it comes with that high parental expectation for excellence too. But the expectations come from if we have said that this is a priority as a school and I walk into the classroom. So, for example, we've been on the Clarity, the Lyn Sharratt journey for a couple of years now and part of that is learning walls, and so if I walk into a classroom and I say by week three, and we've decided as a collective team and that's the entire staff that by week three this will be up on the wall. If this is not up on the wall, then I'll have that conversation with you.

Robyn Hutchins: 19:18

Hey, I noticed this is missing. Is there a reason? It's not there Because, again, coming from a student first perspective, the learning wall is their ability to access what the class is working on. So if they're away, they can catch up. If they need additional assistance or help, they can go to a peer or they can go to the wall before they come to you. So it's those type of. We've agreed to this. This is what I'm going to hold you to. We've said this is going to happen. Therefore, I expect to see it and I expect it to be visible in the classroom. If you tell me that this is going to be your literacy time and I walk in and you're doing art once, I might let that slide, but the second time I'll go. Hang on. When's your literacy? Have you rescheduled your timetable or when is that happening? Because this is the priority, this needs to happen. When have you fit this into your week? So it's those type of be your word.

Jenny Cole: 20:05

Yeah, and what I heard you model, there was a, even though I'm holding you to a high standard. There's a curiosity which is I'm not saying that. Tell me about that. What's going on? And that's promoting the person that you're talking to to be doing the thinking, to be answering the questions, rather than I don't see your learning wall. Please put it up, and then it becomes me.

Robyn Hutchins: 20:28

I am definitely not a dictator. I definitely come from the curiosity mindset and I know I respond much better when people query questions. Right back when I was a beginning teacher, I had an amazing mentor teacher at that time who taught me how to question students. So he'd just continually ask why, why, why? And he'd ask it of me as well as the kids he was teaching, and I was like that is so powerful. And you'd watch the kids draw out their knowledge and realize that they knew things that they didn't even know, that they knew.

Robyn Hutchins: 20:57

And I just thought there is so much more power in curiosity and questioning than there is in being dictated to. And so it is how I will approach, even when I'm doing line management meetings with my staff. It is the what do you think? Why do you think this is happening? Where do you think we should go next and ask those questions to guide them on their journey, so that they've got that power of hey, okay, I am actually the one leading this journey and you're just walking alongside me because, again, I don't ever claim to be the expert. I am purely helping you find your inner voice and your inner direction, because I believe in growing leaders and that's my teaching staff as well. They're all capable of further steps and they're all leaders in their own classroom, so they need to have that autonomy and self-confidence to be able to do that

Jenny Cole: 23:08

And that's exactly what I was going to ask you next, I know that you're passionate about growing leaders. Not everyone can be the boss, so what does growing leaders look like in a school, and what do you actively do to promote leadership within your teams?

Robyn Hutchins: 23:24

So, lots of little ways, I'll have conversations regularly with my staff and that's the teaching staff as well as my leadership team to ask them what it is they're looking for. So even in the last week of last term I had an older teacher come to me and say hey, I think I looked for opportunities a couple of years ago and then I kind of took a back seat because my life said no. But now I think I'm ready to step up again and to me that's like yay celebration because obviously I'm doing something right and leading the school. That's making staff feel safe to take those calculated risks because they know that they will have the support behind them. Stepping out of your comfort zone in any short sort of leadership role, even within your classroom, if you're taking on, say, a team leader role of your level, it's putting yourself above the others to some extent and that takes confidence and you need to know you're only going to feel confident if you feel safe. And so it's giving opportunities and I try to build as many opportunities as I can within the school to have those leaderships. So we'll have team leaders at the lowest level, which is the person that I go to for if I need feedback. So I've got a question for the year level team, even if it's something that's benign, as should we do a camp next year for this year level? I'll go to that person. They can get the opinions of the others and then bring it back to me, so they're kind of the sounding board.

Robyn Hutchins: 24:35

Then you've got people.

Robyn Hutchins: 24:37

You might have a committee within the school, so it might be a reading committee or a First Nations committee, and then I'll look for the staff that want to put their hand up and do that.

Robyn Hutchins: 24:44

I'll look for the teacher mentors, so those that do something really well, so reading and therefore you can put beginning teachers with them, you can put watching others work you can have some of my first year teachers in to watch them.

Robyn Hutchins: 24:56

So again, it's giving them that little bit of confidence to say, hey, I do this well and I want other people to see you do that. And then, of course, you've got those that want to actually step up into a formal leadership role, like a head of curriculum, and so therefore I'll give them opportunities to work with my head of curriculum around. You write this curriculum for these subject areas, for these year groups, and she'll run her eyes over it and give you feedback. And then you've got your DPs where it might be. Hey, I know that you want to step up into principal, so let's give you something really meaty that you can sink your teeth into and you can lead that up and you can run with it and I'll just be here as a sounding board for you, making sure that you stay on the right direction. But ultimately, it's your baby. So it's those opportunities at every level that give people those chances to step into leadership in safe ways.

Jenny Cole: 25:43

That just sounds so incredible. The flip side of that for the most senior leader is, if you're giving people autonomy and roles and jobs to do, if you're distributing it. If you're giving people autonomy and roles and jobs to do, if you're distributing it, it can feel a little bit like you've lost control. Essentially, how do you manage that feeling of I've given all?

Robyn Hutchins: 26:03

of this away and now it's just my job to monitor it. Lots of line meetings that was an area I had to focus to, and so line meetings, it will be right. Talk to me, you were leading up reading Reading's your baby within the school. Talk to me about where you're at, how is that going? And then I'll use my walk arounds and regular check-ins with the classroom to see is what they're actually telling me they're doing and it's happening, actually happening? So that's my checks and balances and verification. And then, behind the scenes, last, you've got your semester data when it comes in, but I find that so slow to come in that you need those regular checks in the classroom.

Robyn Hutchins: 26:34

So, as the leader in the school, I don't have time to do it all. I don't believe in micromanagement. It doesn't work for me and I've come from a school, as I said, with 2000 kids. You can't possibly do everything, so you need to. It's one of the advantages going from high school to primary and going from a big school to a small school is I've lived this distributive leadership and the checking in just to make sure that it's all happening. But then it is that extra level of checking in that you check with your eyes and don't just rely on what they're telling you so you actually get out there.

Robyn Hutchins: 27:03

They've said this is happening. Get out there. I'll go and sit in their year level planning meetings. I won't sit there for the whole day, but I'll sit in there for an hour or so and say, hey, are they on the right track? And they're there to bounce ideas off and to make sure I'm visible and present so that I'm around to have these conversations and I sit in the meetings. So if they're having committing meetings, I'll sit in those to make sure they're on the right track and what they're saying is happening.

Jenny Cole: 27:25

And I like you saying that you sit in on those meetings because that gives me a very strong sense that they are run by somebody else and you come in, you have a little watch, just check the pulse and then because the worst thing you can do is start talking and start contributing and everyone just starts looking at you then as the most senior person in the room. It's not micromanaging, it's giving people complete control and autonomy over what it is that you've asked them to do. Yeah, yeah, such a good leadership skill. You talked again a little bit about being in a really large school. Let's just circle back to that. When you began at that large school, it was already big and it became enormous, which there are many schools in WA, where I'm based, that have become really large primary schools that are now operating more on a kind of secondary model of sub-schools and various other things. Also, as a school really gets bigger, the culture just has to change, because you can't have one person owning all of that knowledge. What did you learn in that massive growth school?

Robyn Hutchins: 28:28

Yeah, so when I started there we had about 1,300 students and we only had the three DPs, and so we had very clearly defined roles. We could catch up regularly. Weekly meetings were enough to sort of keep us all involved in what each other was doing in our little subsections. The principal was largely over most of it, but it was a nice side and we were able to sort of keep our finger on everything and then, just due to reputation improving and word of mouth, we grew.

Robyn Hutchins: 28:54

Within four years we were up over 2000 and it was like 2200 when I left and there was up to five DPs when I left and then now there's six and as part of that growth you obviously get more heads of departments, you get more students, you get more teachers. There was times where, because I would look after staffing, there were times I was onboarding 30 plus teachers a year, which is the size of my whole school right now. So there's things you need to do about inductions and making sure that you do those really tightly. We would get the new teachers to the school in the day before the student free days to run them through. Just a quick little. Here's the school in a snapshot. Here's how we do things. Here's what you're stepping into, so that they had a bit of comfort and familiarity before they stepped in. So that was a little introduction to the culture here.

Robyn Hutchins: 29:40

I was junior secondary, or I was HR and staffing, or I was timetabling, or I was senior secondary, or whatever it was was your field or your domain. That was where you stay and we had the same stay in your lane because when you started stepping outside of that and looking at what other people were doing or giving your input into what other people were doing, usually A it was unsolicited and B it then sort of took your eye off what you were doing. It becomes. You've got to have those clearly defined parameters for roles and then you need to have those structures around. These are how we're going to catch up. These are our line meetings time, these are our executive meetings times, these are our head of department meetings times, so that you could keep those key messages on everybody's top of mind and moving forward. Prior to this, one of the things I did was sales in medical repping, pharmaceutical sales. So I was very big on what is there and present in front of you and top of mind is what the doctor will prescribe.

Robyn Hutchins: 30:34

And it works the same in education. You you've got to have a few key priorities and keep it small and narrow and they need to be constantly talked about, constantly top of mind, because that will get the focus. So it's like when we're improving reading, then writing and maths fall away, or when we're focusing on maths, reading and writing fall away. So you've got to clearly define what those improvement agendas are for the school and keep them top of everybody's mind. So that's what you talk about in yourendas are for the school and keep them top of everybody's mind. So that's what you talk about in your meetings, not all the fluff and side things, but this is what we need to focus on. How's everyone going with this? Where are you up to in your sub school subsection?

Jenny Cole: 31:06

I love that. To summarize, you know really strong systems. I think it's adam grant that says we don't rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our system. So the bigger the play, well, the stronger the system, the safer everybody feels Priorities, which is you can't do more than a couple of things. Stay in your lane, do what you do, do it really well and then communicate that relentlessly. And I use that in my starting strong process, which is just relentlessly communicate about the things that are really important and leave the fluff for somewhere else. So it doesn't really matter if you're running a school of two and a half thousand people. Have we got systems that make people feel safe? Are we communicating relentlessly and do we have a couple of clear priorities so people know what they're doing? Such good advice. Thank you for that.

Robyn Hutchins: 31:54

And you've summarized it beautifully and the systems then need to have the documentation behind them, and that's an area I fully admit I'm still working on. Again, it's that detail.

Jenny Cole: 32:02

This is our brilliant documentation.

Robyn Hutchins: 32:05

It's the details that are on my screen, but you need to have it written down so then, if you were to step out of the school, someone can walk in behind you, pick it up and go right, this is where we're up to. This is how the system works. This is how this process works in this school. I can move forward with it and run with it, and that then creates that culture for you where everyone knows what they're doing, everyone feels safe and everyone can move in that same direction with you.

Jenny Cole: 32:27

Yeah, and at things like your orientation, you can say this is how we do it, this is how we act and interact, but also these other systems that are going to help you. This is how we act and interact, but also these are the systems that are going to help you. This is where we save stuff. This is how we talk about things. These are the systems that work in this school and that creates the culture. I think we sometimes think that culture is just the relationships, but it's all the other stuff that make the relationships yeah.

Robyn Hutchins: 32:51

And the other thing I've seen with culture is that culture starts at the top and culture comes from the top. And I saw that in my last school when it was improving. It was because the principal was setting the culture of the school. He was setting the expectations. He set the bar super high and everyone had to rise to meet it, or else that wasn't the school for them. And so I've taken that with me in my leadership journey and then I set the bar here this is what I expect, and therefore, you're either going to come up and you're going to say, yep, I want to do that and I want to aspire to that. You may not hit it straight away, but I want to aspire to that and that's students and staff and families or this isn't the school for me. I'll go somewhere else, but it definitely starts at the top.

Jenny Cole: 33:30

You can absolutely agree. Culture starts at the top. There's a saying that says culture's like a fish it rots from the head down and you know you've got a rotten boss, you've got a rotten culture. But can you do that as a middle leader? If you're a head of department, a deputy, can you hold those high standards too? What's the role of middle leader in all of that, I suppose I'm asking.

Robyn Hutchins: 33:50

So, within that, as a middle leader, you've still got your own culture that you set. So, even though you have the culture of the school, you've got the culture of your sub-school. So, say, as a middle leader, you might be junior, secondary, and I'll use that as an example, because I was. I would always start a meeting at the start of the year with my teachers, with my heads of department, that I aligned, manage with my faculty areas and go this is the school priorities.

Robyn Hutchins: 34:13

Where do we fit within this? We fit right here and these are my expectations and my priorities. Where do we fit within this? We fit right here and these are my expectations and my priorities, and this is what you will be held to. These are the expectations and this is what we want to work towards together. And so you can have your own subset. So you're not going out and setting a completely different culture. That's never going to work. But if you work within the culture that's been set or the direction that's been set for the school and the expectations, you can then form your own. And I think it's very powerful to let the people under you as a middle leader, know where you stand with that and what your personal priorities and beliefs are because that will let them know how they can work with you best.

Jenny Cole: 34:53

And yes, absolutely, because people want to work for you as the leader. They want to know how do I communicate with you best, how do you like me to plan? We do want to please and sometimes we just don't know what our team leader wants. And particularly, I think, when you're new to leadership, you often want to just be friends with people, which just creates all sorts of stress and anxiety because there's no clarity.

Robyn Hutchins: 35:16

Yeah, it is sad and that goes back to that loneliness, in that you cannot I mean, yes, okay, you can be friends, but ultimately, like I was given advice early on in the, don't have people under you as Facebook friends, because it comes to the point where if you need to chip them for something or correct them for something, that's a really hard conversation to have when you've been socialising on the weekend and drinking together, or they know everything about your life because you've posted it X, y and Z all across social media. Here's a new leader. It helps to have that division and barrier there to give you a little edge above them so that you are comfortable and confident in your abilities to have that conversation, because you're not having a tough conversation with a friend.

Jenny Cole: 35:57

Yeah, it's really tricky to navigate. We're going to wrap up shortly, but before we do, you've shared with us already some of the advice that you've received. I suppose we learn best from our mistakes. Is there been a learning or a lesson that you perhaps make over and over again, that you think every time gosh, I wish I here it is. Here's that lesson again, or some advice that you would share for new or aspiring leaders.

Robyn Hutchins: 36:21

So I think I'd been a DP for about 18 months, two years, when my principal took me in for a meeting and at that point said and he said, this is a really tough conversation for me because I really like you as a person, but at the moment I'm not seeing progress. I'm not seeing you progress, I'm not seeing your area progress, I'm not seeing any change, I'm not seeing what you stand for at the moment and I need to see that. And I was only acting at this point. So he said I need to see that, or this is not the school for you. And it was a really big kick in the pants.

Robyn Hutchins: 36:55

But I had to admit at the time I'd become a little bit lost and a little bit disillusioned and I needed to give myself a big pickup and go oh, hang on a minute, he actually has a point here and really do some inner soul searching to go is this what I want? Do I want to stick with this? And the answer was yes, and so therefore, I had to take those steps to move forward and really work out. And it was purely that I was lost. I just didn't have a direction at that point, like, yes, I was doing the job day in, day out, but it was a bit perfunctory and I wasn't certain that my heart was in it. So I had to sort of find my heart again to be able to get myself out of it, to move forward.

Robyn Hutchins: 37:35

And that's not easy to do. It wasn't easy to do but it took me probably about a term. But it was really that inner soul searching Is this what I want? Yes, well then you better find out your heart, what makes you tick again and really move forward and find some direction. So that was a really big wake up call to go. If ever you are missing the heart of something, it shows and it comes through loud and clear. So it's making sure that when I feel I'm losing, that now is when I go. Do I need to step sideways? Do I need to step up? Do I need a new experience? Do I need a new challenge? What is it I need so that I never reach that complacency part again, because complacency isn't great for anybody, particularly not at leadership.

Jenny Cole: 38:16

That is sensational. First of all, congratulations for not falling into a big heap, because most of us, when we got that kind of really tough love and that's what it is he obviously cared about you as a professional and as a human being. To deliver that message would have been tough for him but even tougher for you to hear, so not to fall into a puddle and cry. For three months I did momentarily, it wasn't easy.

Jenny Cole: 38:42

And did you do that all on your own or did you get some of your crew around you and run things past them as well?

Robyn Hutchins: 38:48

That was now my principal buddy, but at that point she was my DP buddy. I was very open and said hey, this is the conversation he's just had with me and I need your help here and I need to work out some really heavy questions and really used her as a sounding board, as well as a few other people I knew that I really trusted at that time to go just to help me find a direction again and remind me why I do what I do and what my passion is. I think I just got so busy with the doing, I'd lost my passion. So it was leaning on the external because I couldn't have got myself out of that funk by myself. But it's leaning on those external people to remind us as to why we do what we do and what the good parts are, because we can't always see those. On the bad days you can't always see those. So it is having those people around you to go hey, today's just a bad day, chalk it up to that, tomorrow's a new start. Let's go from there.

Jenny Cole: 39:38

Wonderful, Robyn. It has been an absolute delight talking to you. You are absolutely singing from my hymn sheet and, interestingly enough, I'm going to put this in here. This is just a little teaser because I haven't kind of fleshed it out yet, but I'm really looking at some ways of supporting people besides the coaching and the work that I do for those people who get that feedback that you've got, that you're not your best self and you're not doing the things that bring you joy anymore. And how did I get here? And some ways to make some decisions. Just as you said, do I keep doing what I'm doing? Do I lead, do I step up, do I change, do I quit and try and sort through all of those issues? So I've got a bit of a framework coming. So those people who think that they might be feeling a bit restless or lost, watch this space. But, Robyn, I've learned so much from you today and it's been just delightful. Thank you very much.

Robyn Hutchins: 40:31

Thank you so much for having me, Jenny.

Jenny Cole: 40:33

Pleasure, and so, if you've enjoyed today's conversation, we will be back in your ears next week with another special guest. Thank you for joining me. See you soon.

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