Revolutionising Education Through Leadership and Innovation with Cara Fugill

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole, and I'm thrilled today to be joined by Cara Fugill, Principal of Scotch Global. Welcome, Cara.

Cara Fugill: 1:12

Oh hi, Jenny, Lovely to see you and thank you very much for having me Exciting.

Jenny Cole: 1:17

I thought I would get her to explain Scotch Global, but it seems that it might actually be better for her to talk you through her journey and how she's ended up, and then we will dive deep into what she's doing now. So I'd love you to share your leadership journey with us. Thanks, cara.

Cara Fugill: 1:35

Yeah, I guess I could go back to really where I think fundamentally good leadership comes from, which is right back in the classroom. And I graduated from university as probably 19, 20 year old that ended up in a classroom teaching mathematics actually. And I graduated from university as probably 19, 20 year old that ended up in a classroom teaching mathematics actually. And I spent those first couple of years really trying very hard to get very good at perfecting, being the best maths teacher that I could be, and I did that by moving around in lots of different contexts. So I taught rurally, I taught in the private system, I taught in the state system and built up some experience before then heading over to London. And when I arrived in London, my vision for where I would be going was actually no different. I thought I would just have a new experience and a new context.

Cara Fugill: 2:22

But what I learned very quickly is in the international market, the view of leadership was quite different. So from Western Australia's point of view at that time, the way I saw it was that the longer that you would be in a position, the more likely you were to be the next in line to step in. And when I went to London, they had a different view, which is that people can be leaders of any age. And that was really exciting. And they said apply for this second in department, for the maths position. And I said, oh, not sure that I'm ready for that. You know ums and ahs and I don't know. And they pushed me into it and I loved every minute of it and I thought, oh yeah, this is for me. And so I looked for positions then in international schools and the British School of Brussels came up and so therefore, I moved over there and became the head of department, and I was overseas for about four years and then came back to Murdoch College where I walked straight into a leadership position at a relatively young age, I think.

Cara Fugill: 3:22

So at that stage I was sort of 27 and became head of house at first and then head of senior school, then had children and found myself at Penrhos College, which was an amazing school, and there I became the assistant dean of teaching and learning. So I really developed my passion for teaching and learning and innovation in that space there, alongside the principal of Guildford Grammar, peter Allen. He moved to Scotch College. His position came up there as Dean of Teaching and Learning, and so I moved into that space and have been there for 10 years now and then became Director of Teaching and Learning Pre-K to 12 at Scotch College.

Cara Fugill: 4:00

And in 2023, dr Alec O'Connell came to me and said would you be willing to lead a brand new project if I can get the funding for it? How about taking on innovation within education and using your skill set today to try and design something new? And that's where Scotch Global was born, out of a conversation and a willingness to say yes and to take a risk in terms of my career. But I can tell you for 2023, best decision that I've ever made.

Jenny Cole: 4:34

Oh, fantastic, and so that was going to be my question. How do you make a decision to move on or move up or change roles? What sorts of things have gone through your head over the years as you've contemplated new roles?

Cara Fugill: 4:48

I think for me. I look at whether the job is interesting to me and whether or not I can feel like that. My skillset aligns to it. So what do I think fundamentally I could do within that position? And it's not defined by what's been in the past and whether or not I can emulate that person. I think it's about do I see the opportunity for growth and development and therefore that's the part that I think that I'm drawn to and if I think that it's just going to be a next stepping stone in my career that's going to lead to I'm not the kind of person that's going to take that. I'm not the kind of person that's going to take that job. I really need to feel passionate about what I'm doing, more so than I feel that I'm on this trajectory or pathway and that I must do this to get to here. I feel that it's going to happen and I'm just going to go along for the ride.

Jenny Cole: 5:41

And so what are you passionate about over your career? What sorts of things have really motivated and driven you because you're passionate about them?

Cara Fugill: 5:50

So much. It's a hard one. I think I'm probably passionate about a lot of things, but for me, really good quality teaching and learning, I think fundamentally looking at resources and structures and seeing how they work and whether they work to the optimum, looking at things that have been done in the past and sort of thinking, does that actually make sense? And then implementing change. So I'm sort of really driven by those sorts of things. And then, on the flip side of that, I'm really interested in ensuring equity for all. Like I feel, whether that is a teaching staff, school resources, everybody around you students, parents I feel that trying to achieve equity and fairness is probably something that drives me fundamentally to not stop and to be impaired by the noise that's going around. I'm so driven to get to that point. That's where I'll make some hard decisions at times and it gives me the confidence to do so.

Jenny Cole: 6:57

Before we go much further and I'm probably going to spring this question on you, but it was something that came up to me when you were describing your leadership journey. You talked about working alongside Peter Allen, and that's when I first met you, and it always struck me that there was this fabulous sort of competition might not be the right word but that you egged each other on and that you developed each other, did I? Get that right and talk about that relationship.

Cara Fugill: 7:24

Well, yes, from that perspective, I think, pete, he has an incredibly innovative mindset but also has a great degree of confidence to go and, I guess, source or resource his vision. And I think I was quite inspired by that because it really sort of felt like actually, if you've got enough passion and enough drive, you can actually solve a lot of the problems yourself, or you can put forward solutions that, if they're well founded, then actually there's an opportunity to do a lot within the roles that you've got. So, watching him in the role as, say, director of Teaching and Learning some of the innovation that he brought in I sort of saw that being a lot of hard work, complex at times, and he was very passionate about what he was doing. Equally, I was in the Dean of Teaching and Learning role and I was passionate about other things that were driving me. So in that sense it was like, well, you've got this, I've got that. So it's like a bit of a positive relationship where the two of you can actually achieve quite a lot, because he's trusting me to do my job, I'm trusting that he's sort of working on culture, strategy and things like that.

Cara Fugill: 8:41

So I guess not competitive, and I understand why you would use the word competitive because it was friendly, banter, yeah, yeah, but there was a sense of we could do some really great things and we can actually make some significant changes that we think will have a huge impact on a school culture, environment, standards, and so that brings a lot of enthusiasm and commitment to your work, because there's a lot possible, and I would actually say that Dr Alec O'Connell is probably the reason for that, because his leadership style is very familiar, very transparent, but at the same time, he doesn't micromanage. There's not this sense of that. You need to run every decision via Alec. Alec needs to know what he needs to know, and then he trusts in the people that he employs, and I've learned a lot from him with regards to that.

Jenny Cole: 9:36

Yeah, and I think if anyone's ever worked in a team where it's worth more than the sum of its parts, I think that's probably what you're describing is you get two clever people together who are led by someone who leads really well, and it just. The possibilities are endless.

Jenny Cole: 9:52

I also was thinking about, back to my career, where I was working alongside somebody that I really respected and we raised each other's standards because we were so passionate and committed and doesn't always happen, but it's beautiful when it does is to have that kind of collegiate relationship.

Cara Fugill: 11:33

You don't need to work together forever. It's like what you learn from somebody then becomes a springboard for your own confidence in terms of leadership. So I guess that's the efficacy that's involved in watching, or collective efficacy in this watching somebody else succeed and then feeling like, well, you can also do the same thing and they're watching you, and it is a fantastic point of growth and through that you actually have the ability to take more calculated risks than you would when you're entirely on your own. And that's the power of a really strong team.

Jenny Cole: 12:12

Yeah, lovely, you talked a little bit about the things that you've learned from Alec. What else have you learned about good leadership from him?

Cara Fugill: 12:20

That keep yourself busy.

Cara Fugill: 12:22

I think busy in the sense I don't mean busy, but as in, look at what it is that you can achieve within the organisation as well, rather than as a leader now sort of saying, well, I'm orchestrating this in that sense of I need to sit here and meticulously watch what's happening and check on it.

Cara Fugill: 12:44

I think that good decisions that your team makes, bad decisions that your team makes, comes to light anyway, and spending your time watching your team so closely is really counterproductive.

Cara Fugill: 12:58

And I actually feel that, in the sense that you know, alec is an incredibly busy person that knows a lot about it, knows a lot about his organisation because he listens, and he listens very carefully to all the information that's coming in, but he doesn't jump at shadows. So, in other words, he doesn't believe categorically that everything that comes to him is fact and he spends time, I guess, sitting back, observing, watching, thinking about the whole picture. And that's the hardest thing to do when you come up through the leadership is the ability to take your nose off the square on the carpet, see the grander pattern on the floor and every layer that you get to. In leadership, you learn to see it from all the different perspectives and he has that incredible ability to see it from all the different perspectives and he has that incredible ability to see things from multiple perspectives and I guess I've learned that from him. You know that ability to hold judgment and to find out what are actually the pushes and pulls within, like a very complex ecosystem which is a school.

Jenny Cole: 14:09

Yeah, it's that you know off the dance floor and onto the balcony, kind of analogy and that real strategy. But I also heard he employs good people and then trust them to get on with the job.

Cara Fugill: 14:20

Yeah, and part of that is he's an incredibly busy person and he has to trust the people that he's employed and I hope that I give that same latitude to my staff or my team. And often you have to teach people to trust in themselves and to be autonomous and to say, yeah, you know we're going to make mistakes, but the mistakes that we're especially in this situation of a start-up like Scotch Global it's. You can't possibly know all the answers, you can't possibly pre all the answers, you can't possibly preempt all the outcomes. So therefore, there's going to always be unintended consequences or unintended outcomes of decisions that you make.

Cara Fugill: 15:00

So you can either view them as good, you can view them as bad, or you can look at it and say, well, this is just a journey and there's no way of being able to predict that. So there are really no mistakes within all of this. There's only ways of reflecting, looking at it and thinking actually, next time, how could we do it better or what adjustments are we going to make, and I think that's how you have to see your journey. It's not about perfectionism. It's about attention to detail and good reflective skills and holding judgment, and I would say it's that combination of things, plus a vision for what could be, is the way that you get from perfectionism Zed Wherever we're going.

Cara Fugill: 15:47

Well, and that's it, your whole journey. I think when I was younger, I probably looked at people in leadership and went oh, they're there, wherever that was, you know, maybe that was like head of the maths department. When you're young, you look at leadership and you go well, that person's made it because that's as far as you can lift your nose off the square right. That's the highest your balcony takes you at that point in time. And then, as you continue on this journey, I think what you realize is that your work and career is a lifelong journey of learning, and if it stops being that, then you probably need to get out of education absolutely.

Jenny Cole: 16:26

Absolutely yes.

Cara Fugill: 16:27

And it was always a classic for that statement. You know, if you're not moving forward in education I think we heard that from a conference that we attended over East but if you're not moving forward in education, then you're probably moving backwards. And I think I've gone with that mindset ever since, of looking at things and thinking, well, where are the biggest issues, what can I solve and what's in my scope of control? And regardless of whether that sits in my job description or not, if I have the capabilities and capacity to do it, then it falls under my responsibility to act on it. That's sort of how I see it.

Jenny Cole: 17:05

It's a good perspective. So, given that leadership is a journey, not a destination, what are some of the key lessons that you've learned along your journey? I often like to think about. What are the lessons that keep kicking you in the bottom and you think, gosh, I should have learned that before. I should have done something about that earlier.

Cara Fugill: 17:23

I like to think about this all the time, I mean without reflecting too hard on things that you feel that you've missed out on or the mistakes that you've made, because I feel to dwell on that's unhelpful, but at the same time and like you said, it's a journey, so there's no sort of wrong turn in your journey. But I think there are things that you would say to your younger self that I guess and the probably one thing that sort of comes to mind is that sense of nobody's ever ready or fully skilled or trained in the next step that they're going to take in their career progression. Everybody is taking a leap of faith and you know your own skill set. You just don't know what it looks like within the job that you're about to step into. So that can be very frightening for a lot of people that want to progress their career but don't necessarily feel like they have that skill set all wrapped up and women are classic for this. It's like if I don't have 95% of that basket complete, then the risk of failure is too great. So therefore, maybe I won't apply and I think we're getting obviously much better at doing this. But at the same time, my advice or to my former self is stop worrying about that. Know what you're good at and accept that that's your strengths. Know that you're going to have some blind spots and that it's going to take the exposure to that next stage of your career to learn what those blind spots are. But have a reflective mindset so that you're not blinkered to them when they come up. And then the other aspect of like encouraging people to apply for that next stage is trust in the fact that there's also a panel that understands their school culture, understands the remit of the job and therefore go with your authentic self into an interview with what it is that you can actually do and let them be the ones that make the decision. If they back you in, you're the best person for the job and I think I probably.

Cara Fugill: 19:30

As I said when I started my career, I didn't step out of uni going I'm going to be principal of a subject.

Cara Fugill: 19:39

I just wanted to be a really good teacher and then I wanted to be a really good second in maths department and then I wanted to be a really good head of maths.

Cara Fugill: 19:47

I've always had that mindset of just do what you're doing well and when the opportunities arise that you think are interesting and that you think that your skill set and got to the point in your current position where maybe you're not seeing the growth anymore, then put yourself forward and see where that ends up and being rejected from a position. There's a lot of people that have a resentment for not being picking something, and I have employed enough people to see where that goes wrong. But there's only one person for every job and that's why I think you've got to not see within your organisation that your next stepping stone needs to be within your organisation. I think you've got to have the courage to look broadly and then make the transition, the change and grow with the job, because that's actually where the self-confidence comes from, that's where the opportunities come from, that's where you learn most about yourself is when you're the most vulnerable, and we always feel the most vulnerable when we start that next step of our career.

Jenny Cole: 20:56

Such good advice and I had a previous guest who said much the same as you, which is, be the best that you can in the job that you're in. And I initially kind of bristled a bit because I didn't want those women in particular who want to overachieve. You know I just want to sit in this job until I overachieve, but I actually I now see it slightly differently which is just be the best math teacher you can be. Just be the best head of department that you can be. Build your skill set, build your confidence and then take opportunities to grow and develop and not tie your self-worth to whether or not you win the job or whether or not you get chosen or you get that fabulous feedback. Just be the best that you can be.

Cara Fugill: 21:39

Well, yeah, and I understand why you bristled at that, because it's that sense of and that comes back to the statement. I think you know attention to detail is a really valuable skill set. Being a perfectionist is actually a pain in the backside, right, and it's a really fine line between that and that. So it's not about perfecting the job that you're in. I think it's really more about not being someone who's always looking for why not me? Why didn't I get that? Why you know like I should have got that promotion because I'm working so hard. I think it's about doing what you do well and then those things come back to you because there's evidence then within what you've done, that you've stepped outside the remit of your job sometimes and you've actually achieved great things. And I think that's what you talk done, that you've stepped outside the remit of your job sometimes and you've actually achieved great things. And I think that's what you talk about at job interviews. That's what you talk about on your CV. That's where you get good references, and it really had nothing to do with you trying to advance your career. It had to do with the fact that is your natural disposition is to solve problems and to be a better educator and to be a better educator and to be a good leader. And so you're essentially creating the evidence base for yourself within the current context that you've got.

Cara Fugill: 22:57

Someone said to me once dress for your next position. I get why people say that you know. In other words, see yourself in that next role, and at the time I think I thought that's great advice, and now I'm sort of a little bit more. Do you know what? Probably more confident, probably not second guessing myself. Perhaps what I was doing was looking for that fake it till you make it approach, because I needed the confidence to do the these things right. But in an actual fact, you should just find your way within who you are, because I think that's what leads to really great leadership. Being authentic is not being an oversharer, but being authentic is and being natural and action builds confidence.

Jenny Cole: 23:45

So it's just about doing it, and then you become more confident, and then you get to the point where you don't need that trite advice about dressing a particular way or having a particular mindset, because you've done it enough to feel confident in your own abilities.

Cara Fugill: 24:00

And I think where you lack confidence, you have to actually seek it out. So, in other words, I knew that there were certain things that were going to hold me back in terms of my career that I desperately wanted to do because, it added, they weren't my favorite things to do, but the rest it needed. That job needed it. But I wanted to do all these other amazing things within this job. I did at that time look for opportunities where I could test that skill set and grow my confidence outside the workplace so that I felt like, even though I wasn't going to be the best in this area, this other skill set that I had, I could shine in that way. And meantime this will grow because I'm getting the opportunity to do it a lot, or whatever it is.

Cara Fugill: 24:48

And I remember somebody coming to me once. You know my skill set is obviously mathematics. I started the ATAR predictor company because of my passion about using data to drive decision making and someone came to me and said well, I could never do your job, I should never apply for it because I just don't have that natural math skillset. And I'm still in contact with that person on a regular basis and it blows my mind how confident she is in that maths because she was dedicated to learning it, and it was like there's another thing to say I'm not good at it, but I'm going to actually take incremental steps to get better and I'm going to risk it and try it and see how it goes. And now, you know, I look at what she's achieving with regards to that and it blows my mind. So, yeah, I think it's like not sticking your head in the sand about those blind spots. It's about recognizing them and then actively doing something about it in a safe space and asking for a lot of feedback. Don't be afraid of feedback. Feedback's a wonderful thing.

Jenny Cole: 25:51

I give it a lot.

Cara Fugill: 25:53

Do you Feedback a lot? Sometimes, I go oh, I can't stop giving feedback. But do you know what? I give feedback because I care about the person. If you've ever received feedback from from me, it's because I see your potential and it's actually from my perspective yes, I'm deadly honest but because I know that you can make that change and therefore this is your one blind spot which then addressing that you're going to be amazing and so it's.

Cara Fugill: 26:24

The feedback that I'm giving is out of genuine. Hey, you know, this is what I've learned, or this is what I see.

Jenny Cole: 26:31

I reckon we could do it like this, but the art of giving feedback and the art of receiving feedback is one of those communication and social skills that, yeah people have to refine, and receiving hard feedback is never pleasant, but if it's given from a place of I care about you and I want you to be the best that you can be, it's absolutely our job as leaders to be giving that tough growth feedback. And I also like what you were just saying about in your career, knowing really what your strengths are but then stretching those strengths. So coming into a role with two or three strengths and learning something more, stretching yourself so that you end up with a bank of skills and knowledge Such a nice way to put it. So thank you for that. Let's get on to Scotch Global and innovation. Innovation has always been a big part of what you've done in schools. I remember you being very innovative. Talk to us about Scotch Global and what innovation, what it's doing and what innovation looks like.

Cara Fugill: 27:32

I think schools at the moment or education in itself is it's a little bit confused, it's a little bit lost, and I mean that in the kindest way possible, but I think there's a lot of people searching for a lot of answers in a lot of different areas, right? So, whether that is within differentiation, whether it's instruction, whether it's in feedback, whether it's in do we teach skills, do we teach content, how much technology do we employ? There's just a lot of questions, and I think traditionally, schools were all about imparting curriculum, knowledge and then assessing it and providing feedback to parents. So schools have become far more complex, and in doing so, I think we've added layers and layers and layers to our school, which makes things quite challenging to change. So, in other words, a traditional school like Scotch College is built on 127 years of decision making, and it's a complex ecosystem that I think when you change one aspect of it, it's going to have unintended consequences in other areas that you don't even know about. I've seen how tricky it can be, and so I think there's a lot of leaders that want to innovate, but I think they find it very, very difficult to do because the push and pull of what already exists and is so great and that the ecosystem is so finely balanced that now when you look at schools and I would say globally they actually all look very similar. So as much as we'd like to say my school is this and my school is that it still has a very similar structure of covering a curriculum, of breaking it up into timetables, having teachers who specialise, assessing students in terms of outcomes and curriculum and grading reporting.

Cara Fugill: 29:33

And then you look at the context of where fourth industrial revolution, post-covid, technology is growing at exponential rate, the workforce is changing like at a rapid rate, to the point where kids are picking careers based on, I guess, the skills that they enjoy or might need, with the idea that job might not necessarily be around. And it's not that I think that jobs are suddenly not going to exist. I think that they're just going to change and shape. And so if school's roles is to teach curriculum to, to report, assess, to have teachers deliver that, and then to prepare students for life after school and education in terms of that broad skill set, but then also address societal issues as well, now there is this demand on schools to something is happening within our society. We need to bring in that education into our school as well, to make sure that this next generation isn't making the same mistakes, right?

Cara Fugill: 30:33

So Scotch exists, but let's take it outside the ring fence of Scotch Global, out of Scotch College, and then let's start this from scratch, and then let's not be guided by the procedures, the policies, anything really that exists around Scotch College. So, in other words, the team itself was the people and culture, was the marketing and admissions, was technology, infrastructure, resourcing, was design of curriculum, teaching and learning and was in charge of all the finances. And so that's why I sort of describe Scotch Global as a startup, because it's like how could you do education differently if there was actually no rules? Right?

Jenny Cole: 31:18

It's that perfect.

Cara Fugill: 31:20

PD the attentive that they go. Just reimagine education and everybody could think of all the reasons as to why we couldn't do that, and that's the challenges that schools face now. But that's why you get what I call the same, same but different. So schools are all fairly much the same, but culturally they might be different or they might have different focuses. Scotch Global, I think, has had the unique opportunity to say, right, well, education was built traditionally for that kind of norm population right. And we all actually aspired to be the norm population right.

Cara Fugill: 31:58

So it was like you know, if you came with any challenges they would sort of ignore.

Cara Fugill: 32:02

It was like we're going to just push you into one standard deviation away from the mean, as I like to call it, and that's how far I think the school doors for traditional education open.

Cara Fugill: 32:12

I think it's a very narrow doorway and increasingly we're understanding more and more about the diversity of our learners and I think that by redesigning education we can possibly open that door wider so that our education model suits more children. So it's not about redesigning traditional education to include differentiation, to build in skills. It's about designing the model that works for more students. And that's kind of, I guess, where Scotch Global has grown out of and people will say Scotch Global is an online division of Scotch College. I would say that our method of delivery or instruction uses a lot of technology and uses an online platform. But the way that we design education curriculum, the way our teachers work, the way our marketing model works, the way our finances, it's just all different. And the reason it is is because it was done as a team, outside of traditional school, where people already come with preconceived ideas about how schools are supposed to look in their respective departments.

Jenny Cole: 33:27

There's one part of me that just absolutely says that's so exciting, that is brilliant. That's exactly what education needs is to get rid of all the preconceived notions and all of that and just start afresh, which is beautiful. But then the other part of me is saying but it's really hard to unlearn all of that stuff. I mean, you've been in education for 20 odd years. You've got a way of thinking. The teachers that you work with come with things. How do you, with your team, how have you gone about ensuring that you are actually coming up with new ideas and new ways of doing things, rather than just rejigging old ways?

Cara Fugill: 34:06

Yeah, really good question. And also let me say that the old ways not all old ways are not ways that you want to go. It's about looking at the way that something works now, and I think when you've been the director of teaching the pre-K to 12, there has been certain frustration points of things that I can't solve within that traditional, but now I've been given the opportunity to solve them. So I guess it's starting with an idea of, fundamentally, what is it that you want to achieve in schools, which is you want kids to prepare for the future. I think you've got to look at what do you want to get out of your same as, like you know, a shoe company? What do you want? The most comfortable shoe? Do you want the most fashionable shoe? I mean, what is it out of our education model that we want to get? And for us, I guess our focus was about being a lot more inclusive, without having to know every detail or aspect about every child to design that education model to suit them. In other words, how could you design a model that's far more broadly caters for diverse needs? And then we don't have all the answers as we go, but as we go we try and come up with the solutions to those right.

Cara Fugill: 35:30

And naturally, when people get busy or they get anxious, or the workload you know, there's times where people get exhausted, like teachers. It's what a job. It's an incredible job of especially five period time. I mean I looked at it from all perspectives in the sense that I'm looking at teachers are working 75% face-to-face teaching time. How full on is that? That's a hard thing to continually live up to plus innovate.

Cara Fugill: 35:58

So you look at all of those things and you go well, the model wasn't that? What would be reasonable? And then when the team comes and says, well, we don't have this yet, we don't have that yet, we don't have that. And I said, did you ever use it in your school? Was it something that was critical to the kids for you to be successful? And then we work on what is critically important to bringing about great outcomes for the kids. So if that's the focus, it doesn't. That's why you know where we talk about innovation. It's not innovation in the sense of I'm going to sit down and design. It's innovation in the sense of I know what good outcomes like and I can measure that. How do I go about working with parents, students, teachers to be really open-minded and to ask lots of questions so that when we make a decision, that we're making it within the best interest of where we're heading. And so that's the difference. I wouldn't say that. I sort of went well, this is such a creative or this is going to be the most innovative.

Cara Fugill: 37:05

It's like the house design that you see on the roads and you're like, well, somebody got their creative. I'm not quite sure, but it's not about being weird and wonderful and different.

Cara Fugill: 37:17

It's just about knowing the existing problems and seeing those and then seeing a roadmap as to how you can solve them. So it comes back to, I guess, how I've always done my role, which is to identify areas for improvement, and that was just the starting base and then also accepting. A lot of teachers come with a oh, but you know you have to do this. In it.

Cara Fugill: 37:42

There's a rule that's in the such and such, and I'm just like where, where is it? You bring me the legislation that says that and I promise you I will be within the guidelines of the law there, csa. But your interpretation of that is actually based on what a school might have traditionally told you is because they want it to be a certain way. And I think you've got to look at everything and say actually, what can you do within the construct of education and still be aligned but achieve great outcomes, like what are actually the rules and what you find it, if your intent is to deliver really high-quality education? Most of the time you find that what you're trying to do does actually fit within the rules, and the rules is that classic? Is it mandated?

Jenny Cole: 38:37

Is it yeah?

Cara Fugill: 38:38

And so I try and teach my team to not focus on the white noise but to focus on what it is that they want to achieve and whether or not what they're doing is positively contributing to that outcome. And if it is, then it's worth spending our time on and it's a focus.

Jenny Cole: 38:56

Because there is lots of education that is not broken. The majority of teachers are teaching really well with some pretty good content. In fact, I think that content we've actually got more content than we could ever teach. What is broken sometimes, I think, is the tail wags the dog Sometimes ATAR is or that kind of pathway that's limiting. Class sizes are limiting, room sizes are limiting, it's all of those limiting factors and it feels like to me you're getting rid of all of those limiting factors and it feels like to me you're getting rid of some of those limiting factors and those limiting beliefs and saying you teach well, you know what you're doing. If you've got a good relationship with the kids, how can we make this the best that it can and get rid of the shoulds and the maybe we always have and think a little bit more creatively about how we could deliver and how we could get the outcomes that we want.

Cara Fugill: 39:46

Yeah, and I think that's entirely right. You know, it took me back a little bit towards curriculum and thinking about what was the purpose of education traditionally to get people to read and to write. But then let's go back to people that developed the curriculum, back to the philosophers, and let's ask ourselves what were the problems they were trying to solve back then.

Cara Fugill: 40:11

right, because education on knowledge comes from an original problem and they had time to sit around thinking about these problems in that context and actually working to solve them and to come up with solutions, and this is how knowledge is formed, and I feel like, somehow, education's got to the point where we've gone. Well, we don't have time for all of that. Let's just start in year whenever 1960, let's just say and we're going to learn what is important now, and yeah, I get that, but the one thing we're missing is teaching kids how to think right, giving them time and space to do so. So I see classrooms now. As, rightfully, we started focusing on skills and feeling safe and comfortable and having a very positive environment, it's now become, though there's a point where unintended consequences I'll go back to this is like. That seems like a really logical pathway, because that's what you needed in the workplace to be successful, and that is true. But, fundamentally, like a child's brain is developing right, if you do not give them time to solve problems and to think, and to do it independently, not in a collaborative space, a loud classroom that's changing every hour on the hour, and you're getting the Diet Coke version of thinking.

Cara Fugill: 41:40

Who is teaching them the discipline, specific thinking skills that you get from mathematics? Who's teaching it for humanities, like you know, and I would say that we try and model it. Do we actually go back to fundamentally? Well, where did this idea come from? You know the idea that circles was so important within mathematics. Like, if you think of it logically, you know it comes back to this idea that it's really hard to draw a square when you don't have any measuring tools. If you have a stick in the ground, a taut rope, you can draw a circle, but then you can draw a square from that. So if you start to teach them the type of thinking that really all of this was born out of, potentially you can get kids further along, because it's not so much about content, it's about your developing their neuroplasticity and ability to think right.

Cara Fugill: 42:37

And so our school is based on the idea that, well, let's teach those thinking skills, let's be explicit about that, let's do that within the independent timeframe they've got and let's make our classes collaborative and social. And maybe the research sits within the independent time, because that's a very personalized thing that needs to be done outside of a noisy classroom environment, very personalised thing that needs to be done outside of a noisy classroom environment. But then maybe that self-management needs to sit within the classroom environment. So our classes are really broken up into the independent and collaborative. It means our teachers have less face-to-face teaching time but they are designing the thinking modules that work towards that collaboration so that the kids complete that prior and when they come into those collaborative classes they're really front loaded with their own ideas and own thinking that they've developed through an inquiry based question process that asks them not here's the knowledge, but here's a little bit.

Cara Fugill: 43:41

What do you think about that? Or here's some things that you can think about. How does that then evolve? It's like having a conversation with yourself, but we're curating that discipline specific thinking and so trying to grow their capacity to think in their core disciplines so that when they are in a classroom they have the confidence to share their ideas and to feel like they've got an understanding, rather than walking into a classroom and not knowing what's going to be delivered that day and sitting there potentially frightened that you're going to be called on and maybe you won't give a good answer and maybe socially that's going to have ramifications and maybe someone will laugh or snigger. Do you know? There's a lot that goes on in a classroom environment. Yes, I've sort of looked at that and looked at my own experience of school and just wondered how could I do it differently? And so that's where the design is sort of Just going to take a slight deviation.

Jenny Cole: 44:40

One of the biggest challenges in all schools is the partnerships with parents and community. As you know, there's a lot more that parents are expecting to teach. Some of the basics that used to be taught at home or in the community or at church or wherever is now expected that we teach it at school. So there's that part about parents giving over a lot of the responsibility. But I'm thinking particularly in the role that you're in at the moment. What do parents think? How have you engaged the community? How have you made sure they've come along in this?

Cara Fugill: 45:11

journey With our parents. I mean, the greatest thing is being reading fenced and not having any students enrolled. When you're designing, or whatever it is that you're doing, we've had this great opportunity to be able to say this is what we offer. And if this sounds like something, and what I found is that there are so many parents out there that feel that their child does not suit traditional education and are really hamstrung in the sense that there is nothing else, right? So, in other words, if the one thing that your child doesn't like is a classroom environment that changes on the hour or thereabouts, well, sorry, that's kind of like bad luck, right, you have to send your kid to school. So, unless you're willing to homeschool, what other actual option do you have? So, if your child is overwhelmed by light, sounds, noises, and if your child needs thinking time, maybe socially not as confident, how well is their learning really progressing? And so parents that have signed up to us have really sought us out. We've done our marketing and shared our ideas, but most of the time when we have that initial conversation with the parent to try and understand what they're looking for which is a lot of the journey as well, because the parent community and the student community is currently shaping what Scotch Global will become and will be. So you know we're genuinely interested in those initial conversations to ask parents about what it is that's failing their child within education, and then it's been very easy to say, well, this is what we do and this is why we do it, and in which case then it's been a relatively easy sell in terms of that. And so kids that wouldn't attend school or felt that maybe their approach wasn't welcome within their existing school, we found that the way they interact in our school or environment or how our students are, is we don't have to modify anything when I talk about a differentiation strategy or we need to apply for funding or just doesn't have to happen, because I'm not changing anything. It's just the model, the construct, the way that the school is designed is to design to open that door. I've got the typical population and now I'm having to design everything for their end. The model does that in itself thing. For either end, the model does that in itself. So parents have been extremely happy with a lot of the feedback or a lot of the conversation I have with parents so far and I'm sure as the school grows and changes and it won't meet everybody's needs, but I've had very little, you know. It's often just been how positive it's been for their child, which has been great. So, yeah, I guess they're choosing this model of education, so that helps.

Cara Fugill: 48:08

But I would also say the second thing is that parents can't be driving. I don't rock up to a doctor's surgery hoping that my parents are going to be there to say, well, I raised you, therefore I'm going to diagnose you, do you know? Therefore, I'm going to diagnose you. If you look at it, I think just because you've been through education doesn't mean you're an expert in education, and every time I try and think about what I know is best for the child and in consultation with the parent. But the school's going to shape, not for the individual in the sense that we're creating a school that caters for this, but if parents specifically want something that's outside what we could offer, I don't know that I would be jumping to that either.

Cara Fugill: 48:58

I think you've got a whole you know, you've got to hold on to what you're about, and I think that there needs to be more variation in the models of education that we have so that parents can actually make those choices about what's best for their child. And if I'm starting to do something because a parent feels like that's important for their child, then my pushback is what are you doing? As a parent, I feel like that. Our school has a very, very strong parent body that advocate very much for their children, you know. That's why they've chosen a different model of education, which case they're very much willing to do what's required for their child.

Cara Fugill: 49:39

And in the same way that I do, jenny, as a parent, I don't expect the school to deal with all the quirks of my child.

Cara Fugill: 49:43

And in the same way that I do, jenny, as a parent, I don't expect the school to deal with all the quirks of my child and the fact that he doesn't want to do homework on a Tuesday afternoon over it. That's my job as a parent to make sure that those things are happening. And I think as a principal you, you know or as a leader, or as you, need to insist upon what's reasonable rather than skirt around the issue and say, yeah, actually, sorry, I'll get on and do that. It's like okay, well, you say this is a problem, so what is it that you've put in place to assist with that? Where do you think that our model doesn't meet that. Okay, right, so if you've identified something that I think is going to be a problem for more than just your child, then we will start to look at it. Does that make sense? It's a very complex one, because I would say that we it's a fine line between jumping at shadows like you say, you know somebody telling you that this hasn't worked on this occasion, at this time.

Cara Fugill: 50:41

That could just be a situational.

Jenny Cole: 50:42

An anomaly, yeah yeah, right.

Cara Fugill: 50:44

And then there's other times where you go oh, that's actually really good feedback and we need to make changes because that's going to be something that could critically improve that child's education and we should be really flexible in that regard. So I would say we're very flexible, we listen, but I don't necessarily respond to situational challenges, and I think you need to be careful about doing that as a leader, because then you're led by your school community rather than what you know is good quality education, exactly.

Jenny Cole: 51:13

It actually reminds a lot of what you just talked about. Reminds me as a special ed principal. In the old days we could kind of disregard the rules and do whatever was going to suit the needs of the kids, and we would talk about the model being built in rather than bolted on. So instead of bolting things onto the edge and differentiating, we'd build it in with the child at the centre, which was so lovely, and we would get parents feedback about what they think their child needed and be as flexible as we could, but not be led by them.

Jenny Cole: 51:45

And a lot of early childhood used to work like that too. What's the child's needs? What do they need at the time? How can we be flexible but not moving too much? And so it's what you've developed, kind of, at the other end of schooling is such a lovely thing, so gorgeous to talk about.

Cara Fugill: 52:01

I just want to Real privilege, though I must say. You know I bet there's a lot of people out there that would do very similar if they could.

Cara Fugill: 52:09

And so I recognise the privilege of being in this and to have the opportunity, I guess, to use my previous experience to make that happen and to not feel so compelled to comply, and that comes from that confidence. But I could imagine, as you say, a really good school that is functioning and running like Scotch College, doing amazing things. Both my boys here absolutely love it. It's working for them. And I think what I'm trying to challenge is that there are a lot of schools out there that offer a very, very similar structure and that doesn't always work for every child. And why do we not have at this day and age, with all the technology that we've got at our fingertips, all the things that we've learned? Why is it that we don't have more variation in education than occasionally, like the Montessori schools or where they are looking at doing things differently? But I think that it's a huge privilege that required a donor from our Old Scotch Collegiate to invest in this, because it doesn't come cheaply to represent.

Jenny Cole: 53:21

No no.

Cara Fugill: 53:22

So, yeah, very, very privileged.

Jenny Cole: 53:25

Before we finish today, Cara, let's bring it back to those people who might be stepping into leadership or in middle leadership roles. What advice would you give, or what advice have you gotten over the years that you've been very personal?

Cara Fugill: 53:41

My advice is you're about to step into the most challenging leadership position that there is. I think middle leadership has such a push and a pull because you've got to have the connection with your staff and then you're also trying to listen and take advice from that line above, and so middle management sometimes feels like a boiling pot and it's hard to get right a hundred percent of the time. But I think, having your eyes open, you know in other words, holding judgment, those sort of good things, that attention to detail, but not perfectionism, being reflective and taking responsibility for your actions, but not dwelling on them, because that's unhelpful. It's about how do you make positive changes. And then I am someone who asks a lot of questions and like all the time, probably ad nauseum, but I feel like that's the way that I don't hold judgment or pass judgment is because I think, if you naturally ask a lot of questions to try and find out how situations arise, how people's involvement like what are their driving forces, really understanding your team and what drives, and trying to be that kind of leader that is versatile and recognizesises, like in a classroom, that when you've got 30 students sitting there of all different abilities and personalities, you're trying to provide good quality education. When you're in middle management, you're trying to provide that for a really diverse team and so understanding those people, getting to know them, being yourself, so making sure that you know you don't distance yourself so far from that group that you don't understand them. You need to be fun and likable and transparent and all of those things, but at the same time, attention to detail, do a good job and ask a lot of questions of your line manager, because they have the experience and asking questions doesn't show inexperience, it shows keenness.

Cara Fugill: 55:47

Yes, get things right, and anybody who's come through leadership in teaching naturally wants to teach. So they want to show you the ropes and they don't mind if you get things wrong. Just own those things and then work around how you're going to solve the problem, because we've all done it, we've all been through that. Everybody who's got to the position above has also been in that boiling pot. So that's where I've said that I love it when that middle management comes to me and asks me what do you think about this? What would you? Or I've made this mistake and I'm like brilliant, you know, let's solve that. I'm not the kind of person that would say oh well, you shouldn't have done this. Like it's great You're using your mind. Now it's created an unintended outcome. If that's the worst thing that happens in your leadership career, it's not so terrible, is it? And then from there, let's try and solve that problem. So yeah, that's middle management. It's the hardest job.

Jenny Cole: 56:48

Absolutely. I'm always so impressed by you. When we met, you were very new in your leadership career. You had two small humans that you were trying to wrestle, and it's been delightful to watch you move through the ranks and finally end up in a really exciting spot. And I might even interview you a little bit later as you get a little bit further into Scotch Global and you can give us some feedback about how it's going. So thank you for joining me, Cara. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Cara Fugill: 57:17

I've loved talking to you, Jenny, and I want to say that part of that leadership journey there's often been a fun conversation about the professional development and the beginning of that reflective process and asking good questions and, you know, not making assumptions was based on a lot of your work early on, so you've been a pivotal part of guiding some of my thinking in leadership. So thanks for that and I'd love the opportunity to share this journey as we go and form education in a different way, thank you.

Jenny Cole: 57:50

And so to everyone who's been listening if you've enjoyed this episode, please rate and review, because that will enable other people to hear it also. We'll be back in your ears next week and we'll see you then.

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