Insights from Education Support and Leadership with Pauline Winrow

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. My name's Jenny Cole and I'm the owner of Positively Beaming, and my following guest has quite a special place in my heart because she has always been my biggest advocate and cheerleader, both as a new and naive leader. But throughout my career we worked together in a professional association and she's always advocated for me when I left the Education Department and started my own business. So it is an absolute pleasure to have with me today Pauline Winrow. Welcome, pauline, thanks, jenny Pleasure.

Jenny Cole: 1:38

Pauline is currently the Principal of Coolbellup Learning Centre, which is an ed support centre in the south metro of Western Australia that caters for students with disabilities from kindy to year six, and she was the foundation principal from 2007. And so, even though she's been the principal of her school for that long, she's ducked in and out and done various roles in various other places and I'm sure she's going to talk to us about that as we go through today. But she says she was destined to be a teacher from the moment that she was expelled from kindy for teaching the other kids. I'm curious to know about that. I know that you didn't start your career in education, so I'm wondering if you could give listeners, a little podded history of your journey into education and into leadership. Okay.

Pauline Winrow: 2:32

Well, I guess from a very young age I always wanted to be a teacher, and I'm not sure where that exactly came from, whether it was that crazy kindy class or not, or not, but I did take a long route there via high school, which you know TAE in those days, and I didn't do that well, so take another path to get in which I did. And then I became involved with student politics and that's where a lot of you know my equity issue stuff came from, I believe. Anyway. And towards the end of that period I was still president at the WA Colleges of Advanced Education, which is now Edith Cowan University, and I played a fairly big role in putting the university status to the colleges, which was a great achievement, myself and a few other people.

Pauline Winrow: 3:34

And then from that I was also involved with labour politics and I ended up working for a senator, putting my course on hold right before my final practice really, and did a few years of working in his offices in Perth and in Parliament House in Canberra, and that gave me a pretty good grounding in the politics of not only the state and federallyally, but just the office as well.

Pauline Winrow: 4:09

So I guess that was a big learning curve for me and a great experience. So when I finished that job I went back and finished my teaching prac and went off into the country and was working in an ed support unit back then it had been a centre, had been closed down because of its numbers worked with a fabulous mainstream principal, warren Backman, who gave me great opportunities to run projects and things that I liked which had a bit of a bent for policy. So when I got into education I was, you know, very interested in the policy behind a lot of that. So I did a couple of years there and then applied for a transfer, which is well, fabulously, where I met you.

Pauline Winrow: 5:07

Came to work in your school. So I think I displaced someone who was great, which was a little bit tricky at first for me. Everybody was sad that she had gone, but I guess that's the way our merit system works and that was a learning curve in itself. You know got great grounding and great tips from you. Jane, you've already said that, yes, I've been a supporter of yours and that was because you're a supporter of mine, and that was brilliant. So that first opportunity, I believe you went on some holidays and I got to be there. Oh did I, and that gave me another taste of it. So I guess from there it was about taking opportunities.

Pauline Winrow: 5:55

At that point, yeah, I think I had decided that I would like to do the principal's job, but I certainly didn't have the experience at that point.

Pauline Winrow: 6:06

So being involved in the Swan District Education Office and their little aspirant program that they had started at that time was a great way to meet people from the district office and meet other people who are on that same journey as me. And then, as as you know, I got offered a position working for what's now called the SEND, or SENDE it was called the Centre for Inclusive Schooling back then and that gave me some great opportunities because I was a visiting teacher going into mainstream schools that had children with diverse needs and working with their staff and the students to a certain extent. And I did that for a number of years and then became a team leader there, which I guess gave me a whole other sort of avenue to look at in terms of managing people. I ran the Fremantle team, so that was fairly big in scope, from the Fremantle region itself but also all the way down to the Warren, blackwood and Albany and all of those areas. So working with a team at that point under the guidance of the fabulous John Brigg at the time.

Jenny Cole: 7:34

Can I just stop you there and ask? You've always had a passion for students with special educational needs, with disabilities. Where does that come from for you?

Pauline Winrow: 7:49

I'm not 100% sure, jen. I think there were a range of different things. One of them was that I moved schools a lot in my younger years and moved states and was always the new kid and had to make you know, new friends and that sort of thing, and I'd always been interested in the teaching side of it. So I almost felt like when I was in the classrooms I was watching what the teachers were doing and how that sort of worked. I was then fortunate enough that my mother remarried and I gained an aunt who was actually a teacher and her school was next to my high school. So I used to go there after school, you know, really to get a lift home and not have to go on the school bus, but also to just play around in her room and help her set things up for the next day and see what it was like in that classroom.

Pauline Winrow: 9:03

They were obviously mainstream kids, but when I finally got to uni, um and was doing course selection, I thought no, I want to. I want to specialize in that area with kids that were finding it hard at school. Um, and I don't know that. I thought necessarily that it would involve the really extremely high needs kids that we find in our special schools. But through people at uni, people like David Evans and Jana Trotman and people like that, I really gained that insight from them. Yeah, I don't think I could have made any other choice. I did pracs in mainstream schools with my, you know, undergrad stuff and there wasn't really pracs in ed schools in those days. I remember going out to have a look at Burbridge School in the very early days and that was like an eye-opening experience and I just thought, yeah, I think these might be my people.

Jenny Cole: 10:10

Yeah, and you and I share very similar philosophies about education. We have both have a very social justice bent in all sorts of ways and we were both around scarily enough sort of 25 years ago when we were starting to include students with disabilities in mainstream but also just in education full stop. And, as you said, you ended up in the Centre for Inclusive Schooling right in the time when we were, you know, moving kids into mainstream.

Jenny Cole: 10:44

I've got a couple of things on my mind. One is I really remember conversations we had with our mainstream colleagues who saw these kids with disabilities coming with funding and extra staff and they're like whoopee and we're like they also come with behaviour and needs and care for what you wish for. But we were also very fortunate, I think, to be in the kind of golden era where there were some pretty big legends in the disability context, some pioneers You've mentioned a couple from your university days, but there are others that have worked with us. Can you talk about what you learnt from some of those people or during that time when education was really changing for kids with disabilities?

Pauline Winrow: 11:33

Yeah, we were very, very fortunate to have people like John Brigg, who was fabulous, Pat Johansson, another one who I worked very closely with, and, oh gosh, what didn't I learn from her. I wish I'd learned more about her dress then. She was impeccable. But I really learned from her about that there's more than one way around an obstacle and that if you just sat back and let it ponder for a little bit, you would find the alternate route. And that just sort of saying well, these kids have a place and a right didn't really necessarily win you a space in the classroom, but being able to talk them through what was actually needed and other ways yeah, ways around things. She was very good at that and that really came down to listening, and so you might have a clear idea of how something should work. But sometimes there are a few steps you've got to put in place beforehand, bringing those people in with you. So, yes, that it becomes their idea a little bit, but so that it becomes more palatable to them.

Pauline Winrow: 13:02

I still think we have schools that still do see our kids a bit like a money grab, but I've certainly noticed in the last five years that I think they've hit that. Ooh, what were we wishing for status? Certainly in the sorts of calls that I get every week from mainstream principals in my area who ring up for advice and not always wanting to look for alternate placements, but sometimes just needing that extra support. So that's been a really good part of the last five years. I still don't think it's perfect and still think there's a long way to go.

Jenny Cole: 13:52

I've got to say.

Jenny Cole: 13:53

I've had a couple of conversations lately with people where I've said I actually feel really sorry for some of our mainstream colleagues who've got 25, 30 kids in their class and in the old days they might have had one or two on a differentiated program and now they have five or six really really challenging kids, often those with autism, but not only.

Jenny Cole: 14:19

And I think back to the days when in EdSupport we only had four or five kids in our classroom and we got to really drill down and those poor teachers are managing education assistance they're managing it's become quite complex and we talked 30 years ago about maybe the pendulum will swing back to a more specialist model. What I've loved about Western Australia is we have the Ed Support Centre model, which was schools with trained teachers and specialist principals on a mainstream campus where inclusion could be, you know, at playtimes and at specialist subjects and those sorts of things. Tell the people listening. For those who perhaps aren't aware of what an Ed yours is called a learning centre, but what an Ed Support Centre brings called a learning centre, but what an ed support centre brings to kids with disabilities or provides for.

Pauline Winrow: 15:13

I think it's fabulous and I know that over time I've spoken to people in the eastern states who have come out and seen it and gone. I wish we had this system. It's fabulous for our kids because they do get to hang out with their mainstream peers, they do get to make friendship bonds with them, sometimes not as much as we would like, but they are included in some of those activities. I think an interesting thing. No-transcript. So there has been a bit of an adjustment about how that happens. When we first started out we would be able to do afternoons where we'd combine classes and share classes and do all of those sorts of things, and I think that's happening, certainly in my school a lot less Mm-hmm. But it's also not just for the benefit of the students, it's the parents as well. And a lot of time.

Pauline Winrow: 16:39

That's where the fear hits between within the schools, within the shared site stuff, and for those parents to see that our kids are doing all the same things that their kids are doing can be quite eye-opening for them as well.

Pauline Winrow: 16:58

So that's also an interesting tangent. They're role models for our kids as much as sometimes our kids can be great role models for them as well. Yes, they're not judgmental. There are always kids in that mainstream school who are, you know, sitting on the friendship bench and our kids are the first ones to make friends with them. We have different little activities set up at lunchtimes for some of our kids who don't want to go into the wider playground. Playground don't feel as comfortable there and we find that there are so many of the mainstream kids that are coming into those areas our kids with the lego and all that sort of stuff so there's so much cross-pollination that happens. And the other great benefit is for the mainstream teachers to have specialists on site that they can speak to and get advice from, and it can create quite a dynamic family really.

Jenny Cole: 18:02

And that's what I loved back in the day with those legends, pat Johansson and John Brigg and so forth, and Eve Lucas. They taught us about really high-quality intervention or curriculum for students with disabilities, both curriculum but also behaviour management strategies which are now becoming used in the mainstream. So direct instruction, explicit instruction, pbs there's a whole range of things which is now best practice in mainstream but we've been using for a long time with kids with disabilities and it's nice to see that because the need has changed in schools and so they're picking up on the good curriculum and the good strategies that we've perhaps been using for a long time.

Pauline Winrow: 18:55

And it's nice to see A wise woman called Jenny Cole said to me, if it works in Edsapool it'll work in mainstream, but it's not always the other way around.

Jenny Cole: 19:07

Absolutely right and now we call it tier one intervention. If we get it right for everybody, then eventually we'll just need to tweak it for some of those other kids. So yeah, all of those things work. If they work in ed support, it'll work for everybody. You talked before about workload. I know one of the other passions you've had and you talked about it. You know you started off in guild politics and in labour politics but you've always been passionate about the State School Teachers Union and even when it was not popular to be a member of the union and it's always been a bit of a challenge to be a principal and a member of the union why do you give up your time in your very busy life to continue to support the union and contribute to it? What does that bring to education or to you?

Pauline Winrow: 19:58

Wow, yeah, I've always been a member of the union since I started teaching and I've been on the executive of the union for the last 10 years and it's something I absolutely love. I've always had that, as we've said, a social justice sort of background Prior to my going on to the executive. There wasn't a voice for ed support there. So initially I think I'd always said, even at uni, one of my friends and I said we'd join the union and we'd become the president and vice president. That's not been the case and I'm not sure that's what that's all. But yeah, so I would have been on the union regardless of where I sat in schools, of where I sat in schools and being in ed support. It is a lonely voice in lots of meetings, whether it's a department level or wherever, but I think that we need to have that voice across all of our platforms. So it tied in quite well in terms of that. Yeah, I do give up a lot of my time for it, but I think that it's really important and especially now it's becoming my voice.

Pauline Winrow: 21:25

I guess in there is becoming a little bit stronger with the rise of kids in mainstream schools, because the mainstream teachers are feeling the pinch of that as well, so I'm able to sort of argue for and against things that are going to have an effect on our particular environments, because they are a little different.

Pauline Winrow: 21:50

The latest union Stop Work was a good example of that, where a lot of our schools would have been put in quite dangerous situations with the lack of staffing and there was certainly not an open mind from the department about closing our schools. But we did manage to get that happen and of the, I think, 24 schools that closed, over half of them were schools because of that. So there is a lot of strength being part of the union and you know we have a few differences of things that we're put up with. A lot of our staff do get hurt on a regular basis and making that known to the department via all of the different forums that the union has a voice in is really important and I think that's an area that mainstream are slowly going to see more of. As you mentioned about the behaviour stuff with those kids.

Jenny Cole: 23:02

If you had a graduate or a new teacher and they were tossing up whether you know whether to join the union or not, what would you say has been the benefit to you over your career when you think back about what maybe have changed that has come about because of advocating through either the union or the professional associations? What are some of the changes that you've seen that perhaps a new graduate wasn't aware of?

Pauline Winrow: 23:31

oh gosh, you can go back so far, jen. The graduates weren't even around in the time when there was no such thing as DOT. That has always been a huge thing and that's something that you know. The increase in DOT time and that's something that we're still discussing with the department, particularly for now that mainstream teachers are seeing the additional amount of work that's involved in putting together individual plans and therapy plans and dealing with therapists and all the allied professionals and all that extra stuff on top. So they're little things like that.

Pauline Winrow: 24:12

We've had some changes in allowances in terms of ed support and I think that's one of those growing areas. One of the other great things out of not the most recent EBA, but the preceding one, was that we now have a dedicated meeting every term with the department, with their officials, specifically on ed support issues. So that's from this whole behaviour, the redefining of the tiered system and all of those sorts of things. So we've been able to add things into that that cover our kids, especially around the ideas about suspension and all of those sorts of things for kids with disability. So there's been a lot of that and I think overall, everything that the union advocates for for teachers affects every teacher in every setting, so there's not always a line about well, this is ed support and this is so. That has been good. What we have managed to do also is the allowance for ed support has also been included for those teachers that are in specialist programs in mainstream schools. That wasn't there for them before. I agree, yeah.

Jenny Cole: 25:41

So we've talked a bit about the union, but I know that you we spent a lot of time together when we were in the WA Education Support Principals and Administrators Association, which is hard to say. We call it WAESPA, which was the peak body for education support special needs principals. Its equivalent would be the Primary Principals Association or the Secondary Principals Association and I know that you've been heavily involved in that and they give advice to the department about various things and steering committees and so forth. If you were a new leader, why would it be important to be part of a professional association? Do you think?

Pauline Winrow: 26:30

Wow. Wespa is a great association and its main offerings, I think, are that collegiate support definitely being able to contact people who have the same sort of experience as you helps you build your network of people, helps you build your network of people. The professional development in the area is, you know, it's the only professional development that's offered really for ed support. I know we now have networks and they're a bit different in terms of that, but WESPA is just for the administrators, as you said, and that can be a lonely little group at times. So to have someone at the other end of the computer or phone is brilliant, but for a long time they were the only people that were providing specific PD. That really helped for both our administrators but also for our teachers, because it was not being offered in any substantial way by the department.

Jenny Cole: 27:47

So I just don't think they understood it's such a great networking opportunity because we talk to people about networking and everyone thinks that it means, you know, having a badge on and a horrible glass of wine and trying to talk to people you don't know. But when you're part of a professional association, they're all like you, they all do the job that you kind of do and they become your buddies. And they're the people who who, as you say, help you out with advice and, uh, you know you can call them. And they are the people who, as you say, help you out with advice and you know you can call them. Or they're the people that you, you know, meet at a professional learning opportunity and have a bit of a laugh because you share something in common. But they're also the people who are going to be with you throughout your career.

Jenny Cole: 28:30

You might change jobs or I mean, I still get a lot of work from my support colleagues because I was part of their network. They know me and I know them. It's so leadership can be so lonely. It's so important to have a group that you belong to. That. Is your network so important? I think Absolutely absolutely.

Pauline Winrow: 28:56

And when we talk looking about people's health and wellbeing, I think that WESPA is, you know, a core part of that and they can be there for some advocacy because they are involved with the departments at various functioning levels, and I guess that's where the divide comes between them and the union, because they can't do anything about industrial and the only people that can do the industrial and do it properly, do it well, is State School Teachers Union and they have a dedicated area for leaders.

Pauline Winrow: 29:38

And I know that you know, over the history of the union going back, you know, 20 years or so, that probably wasn't as strong, but certainly in the last 10 to 15 years, change in organisational structure as well as people in the big chairs, has really created a situation there where there is a leadership coordinator, a person that's in there, a couple of people in fact, and they're taking on all of those sorts of issues so that it's not in any confrontation with the teachers in the teachers' union as administrators, and that's a really important factor, yeah, but the associations are just, yeah, great benefit, absolutely fabulous and you said they were good for your well-being.

Jenny Cole: 30:36

Talk to me about how you, as a leader, what you do deliberately to maintain your well-being, because it's a really tricky job and and you're, as you said, on lots of associations and the union and anything that you do to maintain your well-being.

Pauline Winrow: 30:54

I'm trying to be better at that, Jen. My wellbeing focus has been my staff and wherever I'm at and I'm like I think that's one of the big things in the last probably five years is understanding how important the wellbeing is. Understanding, um, how important the well-being is, um, but, like a lot of people, practicing what you preach is harder. And do I still find myself at my desk at six o'clock or 6 30 occasionally, but, um, yeah, I'm trying to take my own advice on that, um, and trying to have set boundaries on times that I will be at work and what I do and don't take home on the holidays and answering emails. I do not open department emails on the holidays at all and that's been a really difficult thing to do and I've done it for the last couple of years and I'm not going back.

Jenny Cole: 31:59

And you were one of the last people that I knew to have access via your phone for any of those things. You steadfastly refused to have emails on your phone for years. You may have changed, I'm not sure.

Pauline Winrow: 32:13

I now have the ability to do it, but the compulsion is not there as much. Oh, brilliant, yeah, one of those reasons is, I guess, because sometimes, when I am out of school on other business, I do need to, you know well, mainly to make sure the staff get paid.

Jenny Cole: 32:32

Right that helps everybody's wellbeing being paid. You've got some passions passions, one of them being Collingwood, the other one being um, your puppy dog Billy, but the third one is supporting others in their leadership journey. Can you talk us through one, why you love that and two, what you do to support others?

Pauline Winrow: 32:54

Um, yeah, I do love that and I love that more and more and that's sort of been a slightly interesting diversion for me in terms of that. I mean, I'm always happy to help anybody all the time. But the leadership stuff, yeah, has really picked up a lot in the last few years. Always being at the end of the phone for any of our new leaders and those sorts of things has always been something that I'm happy to do. But I also became more involved with the department's program, the Future Leaders Framework, and did all of the course stuff with that and have presented that numerous times to different groups. My school was a pilot school for the program. The network that I'm involved with is the EdSupport South Network, which is a network of 24 EdSupport school centres and programs in the South Metro centres and programs in the South Metro. We also, yeah, were the pilot one of the pilot networks for that, and now that's sort of one of the things. The role that I've been taking on in the network is to coordinate that.

Pauline Winrow: 34:14

Covid, a few other things, people's busy lives, 11-week terms, all of that sort of thing has seen sort of a slight drop-off in the aspirant group people becoming involved with that, but it certainly has given me a good foothold in using that process, obviously within my own school. Um, also, I don't know, I think I just I get a lot of call. Yeah, I get a lot of calls from people to to help in that area. Um, and you said earlier on that I've been in a few other schools as well as my time at Coolbellup, and each time that I have I've come across, you know, more people who are, whether they're aspirant deputies in special schools, and they've been very keen to learn and to create bonds with them and help them on their pathways have been really good, but it's not just necessarily in leadership in terms of principal positions, but I've had I think I went back through a list and I've had something like 12 EAs that have been in my schools that are now teachers.

Pauline Winrow: 35:41

I've got three, four teachers that are in the last sort of five or six years that have either gone on to be running programs in other government schools, like the SLP programs in other government schools, like the SLP programs also in private school, and just giving people an opportunity. A couple of them are deputies of mainstream schools now and I also like to take the graduates into my school and give them a really good background. I've got two. At the moment I now have a deputy position in my school.

Pauline Winrow: 36:20

Who won that position was had been a graduate in my school, worked for a number of years and able to facilitate some job experience in other schools. So she went off and was a program coordinator in autism school for a while, a deputy in a mainstream school for a while and then she's come back in as my deputy now. So to see those people grow and move is magnificent and you know, to be a supportive referee for others in other schools that I've worked with has also been great. For others in other schools that I've worked with has also been great. And I also do the Level 3 Classroom Assessor role, which I've done for the last six or seven years, and though you don't necessarily get to meet those people, it's being able to give them good feedback and, yeah, keep that process going within the department, which is also a highly valuable position and really important.

Pauline Winrow: 37:19

Because sometimes our classroom teachers don't want to be deputies but they do want to have some other career options. So the Level 3 classroom teacher process is fabulous for them and I can certainly say that over the last six years of doing that, I'm seeing more and more ed support teachers apply for it, which is fabulous.

Jenny Cole: 37:41

That's brilliant and you're right. Not all leadership has to mean coming out of the classroom. You can be a team leader, you can be a level three teacher, you can be a curriculum leader, a coach in your school. There's a whole variety of things that you can do, and I think you're right. Giving really good quality feedback to our aspirants is so important and they just don't get it. And you know it takes a lot of effort to do the Level 3 process and if you're not going to get really good feedback, then it's very disheartening. So well done you. What's the best advice anyone gave you, or what's the advice that you give others?

Pauline Winrow: 38:21

it doesn't matter who gave you some advice or what do you give others for those coming into sort of new roles yeah, um, gather as as much experience as you can and listen, sit, listen and watch for a while. I think that the jumping into quick sometimes can put people off and can also misrepresent you, because they're generally people who are very, very keen and that sort of thing. But sometimes just taking that space, taking a breath before leaping into stuff I think I've had that sort of said a few times from a few different people along the way, yourself as well, probably, definitely in terms of that sort of stuff, but it's certainly things that I say to my folk Sometimes it's just to sit back and watch and listen and jump in a little at a time. Yeah, find your feet. You know, it's a bit like having a bit of credibility, you know, behind your thinking.

Jenny Cole: 39:39

In in terms of that, yeah yeah, it's really hard because often we promote our most amazing teachers, yet then that's not the skills you need necessarily in in leadership. So they come in gung-ho and ready to share or change, whereas things only change if other people change. So what you're watching for sometimes is what's the lay of the land, who's who in the zoo, who does what and who you know. Rather than coming in with all the new ideas and wanting to change things, just sit back for a little bit, have a look and see what's going on. I mean, that's excellent advice.

Pauline Winrow: 40:16

Yeah, going into a little bit. Have a look and see what's going on. I mean, that's excellent advice. Yeah, going into a new situation. It really is sometimes those small wins. You know, don't try. Yeah, do the big things first.

Jenny Cole: 40:27

Is there anything today that we've not talked about, that you would like to share with the people listening?

Pauline Winrow: 40:32

I don't know, I think we can have a talk.

Jenny Cole: 40:37

Oh, we could talk forever. The one thing that I love about you and you kind of mentioned it before when you were talking about assisting inspiring leaders is that you are so generous. I in fact said to someone about a week ago I said Pauline Winner will have that. And she said, oh, but she's so busy. I said you send her an email and say can I have a copy of your XYZ policy? And she'll send it back to that. And she said, oh, but she's so busy. I said you send her an email and say can I have a copy of your XYZ policy? And she'll send it back to you. And she said, well, I can't do that. And I said, well, the worst thing that can happen is she can say no, she goes really. And I said yeah, because that's how it works. That's, you can't write everything you. That's why you need your networks and your people around you and you ask when you need help and you've always given help so so generously.

Pauline Winrow: 41:27

So from everybody who's ever got your help, thank you so much. Don't worry, don't reinvent the wheel and you know, don't make three documents if you can just make one and it can do the job of three. That's another good tip.

Jenny Cole: 41:38

Yes, yes, and it was probably Pat Johansson, but as a teacher you always showed this to me, which is that dignity of risk stuff. You know, our kids need to take risks. They don't need another adult over their shoulder all the time telling them what to do. These kids with disabilities need to play and fall over and learn and, you know, do all of those things. And I used to love to watch you teach because you had a rambunctious group of sort of kids who are boys mainly, who are 8, 9 and 10, and you'd be out there playing and doing all of those fabulous things and then learning time was learning and then other times we were just having good fun. It was delightful to watch you, one as a teacher and two as a leader, and thank you for hanging around and being my friend.

Pauline Winrow: 42:23

Oh, thank you for the kind words you make me cry and I'll always be your friend, I'm always here, oh, thank you.

Jenny Cole: 42:34

So thank you, Pauline. This is the end of Positively Leading. We are going to put Pauline's contact details in the show notes and so if there's anything you want to talk to her a bit more about she is more than just unions and professional associations, but I thought I would just give you that perspective. But if there's anything that you want to know about kids with disabilities or anything that she's talked about today, I'm sure you can be in touch. Thanks very much, Pauline.

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