Navigating Leadership in Regional Schools with Hazel Herd

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. Today's guest, Hazel Herd, is a proud Scottish Australian living and working in the Pilbara region of WA. Welcome, Hazel, it's lovely to have you with me today.

Hazel Herd: 1:14

Hi Jenny. Thank you so much for inviting me to come on and have a chat with you. Really excited about this opportunity Brilliant.

Jenny Cole: 1:23

Hazel moved to the northwest of WA 12 months ago and is the deputy principal of curriculum at a primary school, the largest primary school of the four in that town. It's a very complex school, is my assumption, because they have 34 different cultures represented. Her responsibilities is for the graduates, the new staff and the PSTs and I don't know what a PST is, but we'll get to that a bit later. Before we do, Hazel, could you give us a little bit of background on your journey and how you ended up in your current role?

Hazel Herd: 1:59

Okay, starting out teaching as a different career after several different things that I'd done been at home with some babies for a while, so trained in Scotland, moved to Australia 2010 and, interestingly enough, went to the school where I currently am now. So that was my very first experience in Australia and down then in the metro region. Some different schools, lots of different opportunities there, which were great, ending up in a level six school where I was for quite a long time and many, many opportunities there. Lots of great mentors, opportunities to be PL, some experiences to act in a DP role.

Hazel Herd: 2:39

And then deciding, I guess after COVID, many people change, time for something new, time to do something different and see if I could push myself into a different kind of leadership role. So from that point it was going to WAPA, joining a collegiate group, which was the best thing ever, meeting minded people and realising I could do something else and I could make a contribution, and deciding I would make that happen within a couple of years. Because, again with COVID, I'd had planned a big chunk of time off for long service leave but hadn't been able to do that as the world all closed down, and in WA it was certainly closed down for a while. So I did take my long service leave over the next couple of years in chunks, which meant really until 2023, that's when I was ready to be able to be settled again and make a move, and that's what I did, so very grateful for that.

Jenny Cole: 3:34

I'm curious did you think that you might go back to the North West, or was it a plan to go country, or how did that come about?

Hazel Herd: 3:44

Yeah. So there was a plan, definitely, I think, to go country and to go somewhere. And we jokingly my husband and I jokingly said, oh gosh, wouldn't it be really funny if we ended up back where we came from, kind of thing. It doesn't really seriously believe that would be where we ended up. But again, through support from WAPA and my collegiate group and making connections with the professional learning network, the opportunity came for the school I'm currently in to go for a six-month period, which felt like an absolute win-win for me, because can I do this? Do I like this? How will I fit in? I'm a city girl at heart, really.

Hazel Herd: 4:22

So it was taking a gamble and realizing we all do. I think life is really short and precious. Try things. What's the worst that can happen? And for me, what's the worst that can happen is I'm not good at it, I won't be able to do it, I don't like it. Ok, you make the next decision and thankfully I'm so grateful and I've gone to an amazing leadership team and they saw something in me, think I definitely fell in love with the school and the kids and the community and thought if I had an opportunity to stay, I would absolutely run that and thankfully I did, and I was offered permanency in the role and I snapped my boss's hand off to absolutely make sure we ain't going to be dry and I had it signed and ran back with it to say here I am, you can't get rid of me now because I want to be here. So yeah, it was very funny how that happened.

Jenny Cole: 5:10

Oh, indeed, and I love that, all the doubts came up that can I do this? Am I supposed to be here, but taking a risk, thinking the worst thing that can happen is that I just go back to the city and teach or whatever the other things? Yep, yep. So here you are, 12 months in. Can you do it? Have you done it? Are you in? Well, you said you're enjoying it. What have you learned in those 12 months about you, about being a leader, about schools?

Hazel Herd: 5:37

okay. Humility definitely humbled understanding. I don't know. Yet I definitely had to work on asking for help and I'm not very good at that. I think, just as a person, I am really independent. I want to be able to do things by myself and I do find that tricky. So that's definitely been for me personally, that learning curve of don't struggle, ask for help and you don't need to struggle. There's always somebody around that will listen, that will offer help. The department has lots of structures and processes in place, so I have an amazing collegiate group and I know I can pick up a phone or text someone at any time and say help.

Hazel Herd: 6:18

I don't know what I'm doing, but I absolutely love the role that I am in. I adore the kids and the school and the community. The role that I am in. I adore the kids and the school and the community. As you said, 34 different cultures and we all just fit together so beautifully. The students are amazing, the families are awesome. The town like any regional town, I guess, has its challenges. You learn to navigate your way through those things. You don't let that be the be all and end all experience definitely trying new things, saying yes to everything until you find what you like. Learning to live in a small town has been great, but I think I'm surprised by how much I love it and because, as I say, I'm a city girl, always lived in big cities, so for me this is very different and I really like it now.

Jenny Cole: 7:08

Yeah fantastic Because for many of us, our country stints were early in our career and when you've had your kids and you're an empty nester, it perhaps is another opportunity to go somewhere different and to try something new. One of your roles is about new staff and graduates and my assumption is correct me if I'm wrong that there's a pretty high turnover of staff, and I know it's difficult to get staff anywhere, let alone in a regional town. How are you supporting those grads and newbies and any advice for leaders about how they can support the graduates and the new teachers?

Hazel Herd: 7:46

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's such a challenge staffing anywhere. We definitely are a very transient town, definitely. I know my boss has done a lot of work in creating almost like a little handbook and has spent time with new staff talking about the culture shock of coming to live in a town and look like ours. So we've got staff who've come from all over the world very different experiences. We've got staff the new graduates who might be the first time away from home so want to do all sorts of things that you do when you're that age and people coming with children, high school students definitely very challenging.

Hazel Herd: 8:25

And one of the things that I do is I've got a mentoring group where we meet with the new and graduate staff very regularly and that's about. Definitely. For me, a big bit is about creating that safe space and it's okay to come in and if you need to cry today and say, oh, my goodness, what am I doing, it's okay. So try to make that a nice culture within the group, meet regularly, set up team norms and I very much facilitate so I get the grads to tell me at the new staff what do you need to know just now? And it's that point of need, because we can talk and talk and talk at people in their first couple of days and it's a complete waste of time for them. So it's really about letting them set the agenda of what do you need to know just now? What would be useful for you at the moment? Who can I signpost you to, perhaps in the school? Who's got particular skill in this area? Let's go for a walk and let me show you the maths cupboard. Let me take you to see the resources in the library. Come and meet the librarians, find their allies and their people to help.

Hazel Herd: 9:28

So definitely, I see the role as facilitating, not talking at our staff and, as I say, the boss has done a really fantastic job to create a handbook for staff so that they come. That's sent out to people so they've got a sense of you're coming to this particular area. What does it offer and, realistically as well, what will some of the challenges be? But I think the boss, we've set the tone of we're all here together. We are a team. This is your school family. Don't struggle. How can we help you?

Hazel Herd: 9:57

And I am always saying to people my job is to make sure you can do your job. So, whatever that looks like and sounds like come to me, because many things. But I'm not a mind reader and if you don't want to take a break, I can't help. So, yeah, we do work very hard to try to keep supporting the staff. So we want them to love it and stay with us. But we're also realistic to know there will be reasons why for some people there's illness, there's family, there's children moving on and people will move. There's family, there's children moving on and people will move. And we just have to keep getting better and better, I think, with our processes to trying people and want them to be with us.

Jenny Cole: 10:33

I really love that, which is, I think, in the city we assume people are going to come and they're going to stay, but there's not that assumption in a transient town, where people come for work and then they leave because of work and various other things. And I know your leader has spent a lot of time in remote areas and so she understands that for the six months, 12 months, three years, you've got that person. You've got to make them feel safe and part of your team, and not only as an educator but, as you say, their family. This is the school you might go to and this is the sporting facilities in the town and this is places you avoid at night and all the cultural things about the town, as well as about the school. Talk to me about your curriculum leadership and my guess, as I said before, is PSTs have got something to do with curriculum leadership, or have I got that wrong? How do you do the curriculum leadership in such a busy and complex school?

Hazel Herd: 11:31

Oh, not easily. So the PSTs pre-service teachers.

Jenny Cole: 11:37

Oh, of course I was thinking about something completely different. Well, I mean, I was thinking about PLCs, professional learning.

Hazel Herd: 11:47

Okay, our pre-service teachers coming from the universities and that's been an interesting space this year because we were very proactive at the start of the year, contact the universities and to say you know, we'd love to have some placements on the go and five very, very committed, great teachers who were keen to mentor, and we actually still have not had any pre-service teachers come to us this year. So I'm not sure if that's around. It's the region, people's ability to leave home, to be away, and financially, we know our students when they're at university are still holding down jobs, lots and lots of hours for some of them. So I'm not sure if it's a combination of things. But, um, yeah, I've been and working quite hard to make sure we get some students coming through to us, because it is our moral duty to support the next generation of teachers coming through.

Hazel Herd: 12:43

I'm really passionate about working with the new staff. I wouldn't be sitting where I'm sitting had I not had such exceptional mentors and people that were willing to let me come and be in their classroom for long periods of time while I trained. So I'm really, really passionate about that and trying to get the pre-sales team coming to us. But curriculum, yes, thank you.

Hazel Herd: 13:04

So, look, it's challenging because of the needs of school and the staff and lots of other things, but essentially, trying to remember that's our core business and we are there to teach kids to read, write and count. That has to be the priority. So I've come from other schools and settings where we've had these dedicated focus groups. So I've set up a maths focus group, an English focus group. We've got some middle leaders now in that space and coaches leading there. So I'm trying to support them in their first coaching role and rolling out some different programmes and methods across the whole school this year. So, again, our boss has worked very hard in that space when she came into the school and to look at and identify what's the gaps, what we need to work on. So we've been very strategic in programs and approaches that we've taken. We're working with some external providers to upscale and support the staff and keep that going.

Hazel Herd: 14:04

Also, things I don't want to say commercial names, but securing data platforms it, you know, very popular with lots of schools now. But engaging those people to help us to track our data, look at what data are we collecting, why, what do we do with it. So trying to change perception, I think as well. Some schools, I know data's about compliance rather than absolutely using that to pinpoint. What do my kids need next? What's my evidence for that? Where do I go to now? What are the trends? What's the interventions that we need? I'm lucky to work with the student services deputy quite closely and we work together on looking at the interventions that are needed coming from the data, and certainly that's been really useful. But I think anyone we talked in schools I'm the same and I'm time poor and but I can do what I can do and every day we all go into school to try to make a difference and do our best.

Jenny Cole: 15:00

Talk to me a little bit more about how you support. You say those focus groups now have middle leaders. You've set up a middle leader program or process where there's coaches and so forth. What is support and how are you growing and developing them? I mean you and the school. I know it doesn't all fall to you.

Hazel Herd: 15:19

Yeah, I think we've been realistic and understanding. You can't just say to someone right, you're the leader, now off you go, good luck. You're absolutely around, providing PL for them. That's appropriate at point of need and providing some professional learning. And I have one-to-one times at regular periods with the coaches and, again, try to let them lead. What do you need right now?

Hazel Herd: 15:42

So we know our big picture, we have our operational plans, we have the scope business plan, constantly referring to that and even for the coaches, learning to work with those documents and understanding the big picture always within sight and trying not to take over, possibly because I know that I've done those roles myself. So in my head I've got an image of this looks like this, but actually learning to be quiet and let other people talk and listen and being curious about that A bit of the main thing, I guess, in terms of if they ask people, what do you think we should do about this, and it's instead of me going, oh, do this and fix it, it's learning to say, well, what do you think? What might we try? How might that look? So that's definitely been interesting for me to have to do.

Hazel Herd: 16:44

We would do have middle leaders groups that come together, so they are in the spots together in a hopefully a supportive role where they can talk to each other and learn from each other, although there are very distinct roles. That's quite powerful, I think, and the coaches are enjoying that because they don't just feel, oh it's just me by myself with maths, I've got no one to talk to, and they have teams as well, so they're working with their colleagues. So it's definitely about getting the buy-in, I guess, and like anything, we know, we need our change agents and then, working with the groups, working with the plans how are we delivering this for the school? So trying to step back a bit from that as well.

Jenny Cole: 17:23

It's so hard when you do have a vision and you have done those roles and you know how it should be done. But what I'm really impressed by is in some schools we give those keen people just more work to do, whereas I'm hearing that those people are supported and then they come together as a group who are doing disparate roles but they get to be sort of leaders together and they get to have their own sort of collegiate group in a school that's so powerful. They're your like in a primary school that doesn't have heads of learning areas. They're your holders, they're your next level down.

Hazel Herd: 17:57

So even, for example, you know, school development day is approaching on Monday and the two main curriculum areas that the whole team are presenting on specific things for everyone and everyone is contributing to that. I think, again, that's really powerful for them to see their impact and how they're received by the staff as our local experts, and also for their own development and future aspirations to see. Well, this is something I do really enjoy, and where might this take me? So I'm really excited for the coaches and the teams on Monday to see how they go.

Jenny Cole: 18:33

Yeah, fantastic because it keeps good people in classrooms but also gives them the skills to see the bigger picture. Because that's what you said. We've got a very clear big picture in mind, but we're going to work at this sort of middle level to enact it, and it's's powerful for them, but also for their colleagues who are sitting in the audience on the school development today to hear from their peers rather than from an expert or from the boss.

Hazel Herd: 18:57

Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely.

Jenny Cole: 18:59

I know that professional learning is important to you. I know that you're a voracious reader and a consumer of PL. Talk to me about the professional learning that you do, the reading that you do, the things that you've done in your career to ensure that you stay abreast of what's happening.

Hazel Herd: 19:19

Oh, yes, I do read on my professional learning network and a great bunch of people. So if there's something I'm particularly um grappling with or I'm unsure about, I will go to them and say, look, can I have a recommendation for x, y and z? And I will get two or two people who will immediately come back and say this book, this, this book. So I find that really helpful and probably having things like LinkedIn and Twitter, nowx, developing those professional learning networks. There are so many people there I've never actually met them, but we've been talking for about two to three years and it's a very supportive space to be in. So I do very much enjoy the support of that. I'm always looking at the opportunities that are coming up for professional learning. The challenge I have now, of course, is that I'm in a regional town and being released is tricky and the costs. But where there's a will, there's a way. So recently I found an amazing set series of PL that WAPA were delivering and it was either in person or you could zoom in. That was really easy for me to give a couple of hours over a series of a few weeks of a morning just to be able to do that. So I find my ways definitely being creative. I've joined a network in town where I live as well, so some other leaders too.

Hazel Herd: 20:41

I think it's just being hungry, being curious. You're always learning. This is lifelong learning. If I see something that somebody's written, I want to go off and find out more about it, and then I want to talk about it with minded people, as you do, to say what do you know about this, what do you know about this? And, of course, jenny, your podcast, thank you. When I'm at the gym 4.30 in the morning, it's so easy for me to sit plug into one of your podcasts and I love I can look for something that, particularly at the time, speaks to me and I jump in and I can listen to that while I'm doing something. So I very much enjoy the work that you do and how much support that you provide for us all so huge thank you.

Jenny Cole: 21:24

Oh, thank you. That was unexpected but that's lovely. Thank you so much. I just want to make sort of visible for the people listening. That'll make sense in a minute. So you talked about a professional learning network. Earlier you talked about a collegiate network. You've obviously got strong ties to the WA Primary Principals Association, wapa. You said you joined a network of colleagues in the town. I think that's amazing. But what does that give you to have so many sort of groups that you're a member of?

Hazel Herd: 21:55

Definitely. I feel it's collaboration of ideas and support, a network of people. There are so many people who know so many things that I don't and I know who can I go to, who can help me with. I am a very social person and I love people. I enjoy people. I love the energy that we get from different people about different things. But I know myself and living, I guess, away from all my family and friends in a smaller area I need those networks to keep my energy up and to keep my own well-being in a good place. I think that's really important, so that you're not struggling, you're not on your own. I think it could be easy to perhaps sink into that at times, especially when things are not so good. So I find having different people for different things in different groups I find that really really useful and I know myself I am a people person and I need that. So it's my job to make sure that I've got what I need so that I can give.

Jenny Cole: 22:58

Yes, Lovely. And when I say to people networking, they get all very scared because they think it involves a glass of wine and a name badge and talking to people you don't know. Networking happens, as you know, through LinkedIn or through X. It happens in those collegiate or professional learning groups and it is so critical to your success in your career, not only getting to a place but staying there happily because you've got the support of lots of people, which goes back to your asking for help, which you said right at the very beginning. It's essential you ask for help and it's no good if you don't have anyone to ask.

Hazel Herd: 23:31

Yes, exactly Because you don't know everything, and we talked later. At the beginning, I think about humility, and sometimes you think I've arrived, okay, I must know things, and you realise really quickly, oh, I don't know what I'm doing at all.

Jenny Cole: 23:49

What I loved about you was when you sent me some notes. You were not ashamed to tell me about some of your leadership mistakes, One of which you said no, there were two, you said over-promising and under-delivering and not truly understanding the values and cultural differences between groups. Can you elaborate on either or both of these, and why were they mistakes and what have you discovered?

Hazel Herd: 24:14

Okay, definitely. I think at the start very gung-ho and felt I had to be operating at 100 miles an hour all the time, saying yes to every single task or every single request made of me. So I think I absolutely over-promised because of course, the reality of that was I couldn't deliver on all of that. So then under-delivering and then feeling really bad about myself because I felt that I was letting people down or I wasn't working in the particular place that I should be, or I'd given too much time to this task. But this task over here was really important and I couldn't get to it because I was so busy doing other things. So I think that comes to me.

Hazel Herd: 24:58

That's been my journey of experience, probably, and getting to know the role that I have a bit more one year down the track and realizing that you cannot do everything and you do not know everything. And it's okay to set boundaries, it's okay to say no, or one of the bits of advice I was given by a very experienced leader is sometimes to say I'm currently working at capacity in order to do that. What will I put down?

Hazel Herd: 25:25

so just trying to get comfortable with that sort of narrative and spaces. I definitely wanted to come and contribute to the community and I wasn't sure what the community looked like anymore, having been here years ago. So again, 34 different cultures, groups, groups, values, constantly asking people. It's about, I think, that cultural awareness, cultural appropriateness, being respectful. So again, seeking out some PL that I could go to at the local high school, working with some of the indigenous officers to make sure that I'm saying the right things, seeing the right things not sure how that sounds, trying to be respectful and have an understanding, because I'm from Scotland and how life is there is very different where I am now, but I think being authentic, asking the questions, being respectful, I found gets me everywhere and nobody is annoyed with me for admitting I don't know what I don't know, and that's kind of been a challenge again, because that's about asking for help.

Jenny Cole: 26:27

Yeah, and it's humility, and it's that vulnerability to say, oh, I'd like to help you, but I don't know how, or I'm not sure what you're asking of me or whatever the situation requires, rather than running around going I've got this, it's got all under control, I know exactly what I'm doing, when often you've got no idea what you're doing. Absolutely yeah. Thank you for sharing those with me. I love the idea of learning to say no, setting boundaries, because when, as you say, you're trying to prioritize, you're doing this job for this person and that person wants this and someone else wants that, you're the one that ends up feeling resentful and burnt out, and then so you snap at the next person that comes in the door when you didn't mean to. Emotional intelligence is something that you are keen to have for yourself, but also for the ladies that you work with. How important is emotional intelligence and can people build it?

Hazel Herd: 27:25

I think it's really, really important. It's probably one of the biggest things when we work with other people that we need to understand. Kindness costs nothing, manners cost nothing and really big about talking to people, about being kind. Everybody has stuff. We have it in our heads, we carry it, those invisible loads, and none of us know what anybody else is going through secular time. But we can be kind and we can listen, we can be curious.

Hazel Herd: 27:59

Probably some life experience, different jobs that I've done, working with some very vulnerable people in really difficult situations probably, I feel, helps me. I think I'm quite good at reading the room and understanding when I'm going to have a frank and fearless conversation. Now and again it needs to be had. You can do that, but you can do it with a bit of skill and you can let people keep dignity. Definitely around that and very much about how would I like to be spoken to. I'd like to be taken somewhere privately and sat down and spoken to with some respect, absolutely feedback, but it's how we do things and what does the research tell us?

Hazel Herd: 28:39

Quite often people don't remember what you say, but they remember how you said it and how you treated them and I think if you treat other people in the way you want to be treated, you don't go far wrong. I definitely think sometimes people have those skills more easily than others, but I think you can learn skills. There's things that you can do to help yourself. I know Third Space. A friend recommended reading that to me and I find that really, really powerful. Trying to go from situation to situation breathing techniques I read something the other day actually, someone had a great infographic on LinkedIn about trying to have a 90 second pause between answering something and just giving yourself that moment not to be triggered, just to breathe, take a moment, and that next thing that you say can mean everything or it can mean nothing. But I do think we can learn those skills and I think you've got to love people.

Jenny Cole: 29:31

Yeah, yes, even though I advocate for a balance between head and heart and people and processes, I don't think school leadership is something that you can do well unless you love people, and you clearly do. Just before we wrap up today, is there a book, a resource, a professional learning that you've done, that you're currently enjoying, or that you really rate, or something that you go back to over and over again, that people might want to take a look at?

Hazel Herd: 30:00

My going back to books are usually always Simon Sinek what's your why? And also John C Maxwell, five Pillars of Leadership, those ones looking at those things. The holidays, I have to say, is the one time where I managed to have some fiction in my life.

Jenny Cole: 30:16

Excellent, share a good fiction book. What have you read lately?

Hazel Herd: 30:20

I'm just reading Leanne Moriarty's title and the title's gone right out my head just now. It's blue, it's number one in the charts, but it's really good. PL look, I'm really keen. I want to do Brene Brown's Dare to Lead. I'm really keen to do that. It's about making that work and to be away from school for a little bit. That's my tension around how I'm going to get to it, but that's definitely. My eyes are on that. Next of what I want to do next.

Jenny Cole: 30:49

Fantastic Hazel Herd, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. I'm going to make sure that people have your LinkedIn and your X profile so they can keep abreast of what you're doing. You post often and you share good ideas and you just share what's going on the good, the bad, the ugly in a school environment, and so I would really encourage people to connect with you. So thank you again for joining me.

Hazel Herd: 31:14

Oh, thank you very much, Jenny. It's been lovely to chat to you.

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