Leading with Curiosity and Empathy with Linda Griffin

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. While this podcast is aimed at new, aspiring and middle leaders, it would be negligent of me not to invite my following guest because she is one of the most wonderful and wisest people I know. Linda Griffin is the principal of a Level 5 high ICSEA school in Western Australia. She's worked approximately half of her career in low ICSEA school. During those years, Ruby Payne's work Bridges Out of Poverty was her guiding light. She's originally from South Africa. She emigrated to New Zealand and then moved to Sulawesi, living and teaching in a small Islamic village for 12 years. She spent 20 years in Western Australia and says she truly feels a great sense of belonging and we are very pleased to have her here. She has a 34-year-old son, a 29-year-old daughter. Linda is also an artist and she says that her art, her tennis and love of music ensures she thrives in her complex role. Welcome, Linda.

Linda Griffin: 2:12

Thank you, Jenny. What a lovely welcome. Always a privilege to be with you. I know you said Ruby Payne was my guiding light and I've always have felt that when you work in a low ICSEA, Ruby Payne's work is extremely effective. But there's no better place than on the job. It's where you make the mistakes and you learn in the moment.

Jenny Cole: 2:31

Lovely. While we're talking about Ruby's work for those people who aren't familiar with it, can you share what it is about her work that you found most interesting?

Linda Griffin: 2:40

Well, Ruby Payne is originally a social worker, has always worked in really low-ICSEA environments about poverty. It's a framework of working in poverty, and always we bring our middle-class values or whatever class system we're in and we like to think they aren't classes, but those invisible lines are still very clearly there, and so it's a guiding framework of how to work across the various class systems, and the language that we use, for example, in middle class, is not necessarily relatable to somebody who's just trying to get food on the plate for tonight. So when I'm talking about your career aspirations for the future and you worrying about how am I going to survive tonight, you can see that that's quite unrelatable. So it's about being in the code of the system or the social class in which you find yourself in. So it's code switching, really, and then so there are a lot of strategies that go with it, but it's just an amazing piece of work.

Jenny Cole: 3:37

Beautiful, and when I read out some of your experiences in your career, hopefully people can make the connection for why that code switching that, understanding your context is so important. I normally ask my guests to give me a snapshot of their leadership journey, but I'm more interested in getting deep into things. So if you'll oblige me, I'm going to read through Linda bio quite quickly and then we'll dive deep into the various parts and I think you'll be impressed, as I was. Linda began her career in early childhood education and then joined a family business in South Africa, a chain of early childhood centres. She had a career break and designed a clothing line which she marketed through an agent, and this included a uniform contract for IBM. At a very tumultuous and tenuous time in South African politics, she opened a school and then emigrated to New Zealand. She joined a mining company in a human resources role and did a postgrad in HR and training management.

Jenny Cole: 4:45

As I said earlier, she moved to Sulawesi in Indonesia for 12 years where she was a teacher and occasionally the leader of a small school. In 2006, she immigrated to WA, Australia, and began relief teaching, and then she did EALD teaching and lecturing in early oral language development at Edith Cowan University and was also an arts tutor at Edith Cowan University. She became an EALD teacher at North Balga, a literacy leader and then ultimately a deputy. She was contracted to the Natchingara lands for a relief position as head of school, then was in statewide services in the department as a senior consultant supporting the publication of EALD progress maps as well as presenting this work across the state. She became the deputy principal at a lovely little school called Rosalie School and then became a principal at Osborne Park Primary for four years. She's currently at Nedlands Primary School, as I said, a level five high ICSEA school. That's quite a journey and not a very typical journey as someone in educational leadership, and you're not afraid of change, are you Linda?

Linda Griffin: 5:59

I think I might be over all the changes now, because immigration is quite taxing. Probably the key thing about all that movement and being new in any country that stands here in good stead is just about deep listening constantly, because you are always the new one and you can never assume the position of knowledge, so you're constantly learning and I think all those experiences, although they seem very diverse and some of them may even seem unrelated to education, they shape you into who you are, and so I think the key thing to it has been about having an open mind, a growth mindset throughout it all. It sounds quite exhausting when I listen to that resume looking back now, but I think I have found a school too now that I think my last few years in education, I'm 63 now, it all seems to have gone quite quickly. It's probably where is my happy space now for the next few years.

Jenny Cole: 6:55

Oh, I'm pleased. When you said when you're immigrating, you're always the new one. I think that's such a lovely perspective to understand how important it is to get to know people so that they feel they belong and they are welcome. It made me think about if anyone's done any of my courses. They will have heard me bang on about something that I call speed coaching or speed dating, which is the importance of spending time with everyone in your team to get to know them, and they may have heard me talk about a principal colleague of mine, who was you, who went to her new school and spent the first two pupil free days. You were allowed from memory your deputies to run the school development day and you met with absolutely everybody on staff on those two days for 10 minutes to get to know them. To be honest, I can't remember if it's your parents' school or your previous school.

Linda Griffin: 7:43

It was the previous school, but it also reminded me of what you said. It is true, you want to get to know everybody as quickly as you can. You've just sparked so many thoughts in my mind so I'll just go through them all. The one thing is a phrase you use. A lot is about remaining curious and so going in with the mindset of being curious all the time. When you're the new one, regardless of what position you're taking, you cannot make any assumptions and we have spoken about this always is you have to suspend judgment. You cannot make a snap decision and the further you know, the more removed you are directly from staff, students, community, the less you can make any assumptions. And you have to suspend judgment Because people tell you things in one language and there's. Your experience will tell you there's something missing in that sentence when they're speaking to you, and usually out of my mouth will come something doesn't feel right.

Linda Griffin: 8:38

I think I'm going to fact check or I think I'm going to just go explore a little bit more. It depends on my mood, how I phrase it, to be honest with you. And then I do go out and reach more, but I try not to make a decision really quickly until I've checked across the room. So when I first go into a building yes, you're right, I do speed date I spend a lot of extra time so that I'm highly available to people, but on a day-by-day basis.

Linda Griffin: 9:03

In really understanding what's going on in the building, I listen and then I go and fact-check. And fact-check can be over the coffee machine, just saying I believe, blah, blah, blah, or I hear this, or can I just see that I've understood this correctly. But that's part of my daily repertoire. And I don't make a decision until I have double, double, double-checked the facts. Because once you've decided and you commit to a decision and you articulate it, it's very difficult to retrace your steps. And having said that, when I do that I know that I'm irritating somebody in my team. I absolutely know that while it suits one party, it's not suiting another. I've just had to become really comfortable with not suiting everybody all the time.

Jenny Cole: 9:49

Such a good example and I've heard you say that you'll even do that with parents. When they come to complain or they share some information with you, you take the time and say thank you for that. I'm going to go and fact check. Can you think of an example of when you may have done that with a parent that you can share with us?

Linda Griffin: 10:08

Yeah, I actually like you bringing up that example. It's a big one. The first one is it's a level five school. You're principal of the school. Your role is to be available, but there are also tiers of availability.

Linda Griffin: 10:21

So the first thing I would ask a parent is have you spoken to the teacher? And that holds them accountable to the relationship they have with the teacher and the expectation that they have a relationship. It's also the right thing to honor your teacher, to say that is your relationship and you're the first port of call. Obviously, if a parent doesn't feel welcome with a teacher and there's something about their relationship, they are going to go to the next step. And so if a teacher is defensive about that, then my question will be tell me why the parent insists on seeing me instead of you, because it's not my first choice for this to be the relationship right.

Linda Griffin: 11:02

Going back to the parent the parent I'll say there's an accountability to all those stakeholders With the parent. I'll go tell me what's stopping you from speaking directly to the teacher. Then I might give them some tools to go and have that relationship directly. Otherwise, normally that works. Sometimes there's a breakdown and you do just have to get involved and then, mostly, I will always ask the parent the teacher has a right of replying Tell me what is the outcome that you seek, and then I let them just unpack it all and then I get them to reconstruct it, and most of the time they're able to go back with their new toolkit and go and sort it out themselves.

Jenny Cole: 11:42

Such a wonderful strategy and, in fact, you've answered my next question, which is I've watched you mentor and develop your staff not only your staff, but, as you say, your parent committee and students modeling how things are done so that they don't come back to you the next time. They've got that toolkit, they've got some strategies that they can use and they've processed their own thoughts, so perhaps they might not even have to go and speak to the teacher because things are clearer for them. And that's what I love about you You're teaching people how to do it as you go through, but people don't feel like they're being taught. You're modeling.

Linda Griffin: 12:17

I don't always get it right and sometimes you know, often I do have to go and correct things or I have to go next time, and I think that's the thing is. There is another time, and just before I go on to the another time, I just wanted to say in one of your previous podcasts, I just loved it and it was so good for me just to reflect on a previous podcast of yours and it was the one about the monkeys you put on your back. And when you're a problem solver and you're giving yourself a little scorecard every time you solve a problem big, small, bring it on, just bring it on, bring it on, bring it on. It's actually not that smart and I would recommend everybody that listens to your podcast, if they're only recently joining, go back. I think it's episode 11 or 12, but I think that was a particularly wise one on your part. Thank you.

Linda Griffin: 13:05

When things go wrong in the school, I have disciplined myself over time to get rid of the mental clutter. It's not always possible. So when I say something, believe me I'm not able to consistently do it, but let's say I aim for this. Is I mean To say what is the opportunity in this? Because you can bet your bottom dollar that every week something is going to go wrong. And I always say to my team why do you look so surprised that something has gone wrong this week?

Linda Griffin: 13:36

It may not be on your JDF, but integral to every aspect of your job is that things are guaranteed to go wrong, and so it is the grace with which you solve those problems and see the opportunity. That is the measure of your worth, either as a teacher, a leader, an administrator, whatever you're doing. It's the grace by which you do it and the opportunity you extract from it. And that doesn't mean you're not going through frustration or you're not going to go through pain. I experience that all the time. But what an incredible waste if you only wallow in the gossip and the pain.

Jenny Cole: 14:14

Absolutely, and there is indeed an opportunity, and I love that phrase. Which is why are you surprised? Because there will always be a difficult parent, there will always be a child who needs supporting, there will always be something, and they're going to look different every time. But if you've got a little toolkit, you can say how do I apply that to this situation? Or what's the opportunity, what can I learn here? Or what can I, rather than going, why is this happening to me?

Linda Griffin: 14:39

And so there's the second part that we spoke about just a few minutes ago. Alluded to. It is about ego. Yeah, if you're going to insist on winning, you're going to get stuck. You're going to get stuck in your leadership journey, you're going to just get stuck in the relationship and you as a person are going to be stuck. And that's probably being humble.

Linda Griffin: 15:03

Some people are still at a stage of their personal development where they see being the winner as the goal. They are going to see you as weak and that's okay. It's to walk in a higher order space where you know that your humility is driving whatever it needs to be done forward. And so what that means for me and it's sometimes really hard and I've recently come through something that's very hard and it's physically impacted my body you have to massage everybody forward and if you are not willing to be the adults in the relationship and to let go of your ego, the domino effect of everybody getting stuck is just awful. You just can't afford it. If you are working with vision, you can't afford to do that and sometimes you're going to have to let go of things or park things that you really don't want to park and you really don't want to let go of, but you cannot get stuck there. I think I've got lost along the way there.

Jenny Cole: 16:03

Yeah, no, I still have you in my head when you said once I put my ego in my back pocket. And every now and again, when I go to try and win something or I try to prove how clever I am, I really remind myself to tuck my ego in my back pocket. But if you're a young leader, a new leader, a deputy, what might it look like if you've forgotten to tuck your ego in your back pocket?

Linda Griffin: 16:26

Well, am I allowed to use potty language? You may, okay, so don't be a smart ass. The third thing if you're a leader or an aspiring leader, I think the most important question to ask yourself is why do you want to be a leader? And I think when people unpack this to the core, I am sometimes a little frightened by what I see in leaders. The word control often sits just beneath the surface. If I can't be part of the team and I only feel safe when I'm absolutely in control, well, therefore then I must be the controller, I must be the leader.

Linda Griffin: 17:02

I cannot think of a worse reason to become a leader than that. So I would ask all aspirant leaders to become a leader than that. So I would ask all aspirant leaders why is it that you feel you need to be the leader? If it is because you love working in a team, if it is because you like seeing others succeed, if it is part of your core values to support others and grow yourself and others, and if you have true moral purpose, if you are highly ethical and you want to do the good by others and you believe in community, then take on the role. But if it is about your ego and it is because at a dinner party you want to call yourself the leader of whatever it is, then just absolutely no, because it shows, people can see it and it gets in the way of all those things that you want to control.

Linda Griffin: 17:50

I'll give you an example, because you said can I give you an example? Oh, young aspirant leaders not just necessarily young people come into the job at different stages. Change management is a key part of proving who you are in the building. But change for the sake of change is never a good idea. And so sometimes people will come with a new program because in some sort of messiah way, somebody has sold it to them and now they're a disciple and they are bringing it into your building. And now they're really frustrated because nobody wants to convert to what they are preaching.

Linda Griffin: 18:25

And usually what it is is because they haven't truly listened, they haven't honored the knowledge in the building and they haven't hybridized what it is to fit what is already there. And I think that's the number one mistake I see. And people come to me and they say they're just not listening to what they need to do. And I think, well, maybe what's in your honeypot isn't working, or what are you selling? It doesn't make sense. Or I'll hear everybody has agreed. And then I'll just go check in on that meeting and hear who's actually agreeing, and I can't tell you the amount of times it's actually been two people that have agreed and the rest just sat silently with one step away from rolling their eyes. And what it is is because you haven't listened to what's already working well and building on it.

Linda Griffin: 19:13

And teachers are. I don't believe teachers are cynical, but teachers are tired of change for the sake of someone's ego or change for the sake of change. You talk across schools and, Jenny, you see a lot of schools. I bet you it's something that drives them nuts. We are changing because somebody's ego needs to be fed. I'm not saying that we mustn't keep progressing in a cycle of ever improvement Absolutely. But if you think about a program that is introduced at a school, it's a tree trunk and a teacher's existing repertoire are the roots of that, because they've seen the program, they've learned the program and then they've said, okay, this program's good, it's a good basic program. Now I'm going to add different elements to it based on my existing repertoire. Not to honor an existing repertoire is an exceptionally insulting thing to do to our colleagues.

Jenny Cole: 20:06

I could not agree more. And to tie all those things together somebody with an ego who says we are going to do XYZ program because we are going to be an XYZ school, that's ego to me, whereas if you say we are going to take all the best advice and we're going to honor teacher judgment and teacher experience and we're going to build something using this program, there's nothing wrong with the program. But if you don't know the why or the moral purpose, or if it's just going to go on somebody's CV, you're absolutely right. That's when teachers get pissed off and cynical, to be honest, exactly. So what?

Linda Griffin: 20:44

happens is, rightly, the department looks out for the best programs, but you've also got to say is this suited to the ICSIA that we're in? Does this match the context that we're in? So you don't take things religiously off the shelves and use them and when you read things in the paper, read where that data has come from. Don't trust all the data you read. Think about it and contextualize it. That's what you should be doing as a leader is looking at the big picture and then bringing it to something in a practical way, to the smaller picture. So your original question was what can we say to new aspirant leaders? I think the willingness to be vulnerable.

Linda Griffin: 21:21

Definitely put yourself through a change management process, because that is where a lot of learning happens. That's where you're truly listening to people, communicating and engaging with them, seeing the capacity in others and developing that capacity, and you're getting really organized and you're needing to articulate that organization beyond yourself. How you would do it. You're needing to bring everybody together. That's where you're learning about relevant frameworks, using those frameworks so that they're just there as a guiding rail. It's aligning yourself to individuals and teams. All of that is it's one phrase. It sounds like five little phrases I've used, but they are massive in practical terms. And then how do you know that you're performing well? And then how do you have those hard conversations? And then how do you know that you're performing well? And then how do you have those hard conversations? And then how do you embed it in the culture, all of those elements I've just described. There is part of change management, and unless you've gone and led change management process in a school, I don't believe you're ready to lead. I don't think so either.

Jenny Cole: 22:27

I couldn't agree more, and so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm hearing that they need I couldn't agree more, and so correct me if I'm wrong I'm hearing that they need an understanding of change management itself. So what makes people change? Having a framework and then having an opportunity, ideally before they get into more senior leadership, of leading the change of something so that they can say what works and what doesn't. But there was also that piece there about you said aligning yourself with people. What do early leaders need to understand about?

Linda Griffin: 22:58

the people in a change process. Wow, there's so many tiers and layers to this, Every person that's involved in change management. Think about your staff. You've got grants. They're just coming in, so they're going to need a lot more support. So that might mean that you align yourself directly with them and mentor them, or you might delegate that through a mentorship by putting them with a senior person. So aligning with it in the first position is about us all being on the same page.

Linda Griffin: 23:27

Does making a change make sense? And then, where there's a block, you need to go and do some deep listening. So, again, you need to spend more time with that person, not because you want to win the chess match, but you've got to go and listen. Paul, what is the block and what will it take to get through this block? Not put that person in a corner as the troublemaker.

Linda Griffin: 23:49

There is something that is stopping them from buying in and, to be honest, when I hear people say the buy-in, I'm thinking there's a problem with that program as soon as you hear buy-in, because if it made sense, you wouldn't need a marketing campaign. Right, it would just be almost a done deal, Because usually you make change and align things when there's a momentum rising and all the factors align to become one thing then to move forward. Sometimes we have these buzz phrases, but when we analyze those buzz phrases they are actually not very good. And for me, buy-in has always made me go. Why are you having to sell so hard?

Linda Griffin: 24:30

If it was a great idea, you wouldn't be selling this. We would be asking you for it. So aligning is understanding your context, understanding stages of development, career stages, priorities, really understanding what the priorities for the teachers are in the context that they're in. Why are they insisting on certain things? Maybe there's something about the community culture that you haven't understood yet and you're just trying to lay down a program in its pure form rather than it being part of a context where people come with years of experience of what has worked and hasn't worked.

Jenny Cole: 25:08

I guess it's about aligning years of experience of what has worked and hasn't worked. I guess that's about aligning. Yeah, I was going to ask that about. You've worked in several schools in the last couple of years that have had very experienced staff, often towards the end of their career. Any pearls of wisdom you can share with us about what those teaching staff need, and perhaps what they might need from their middle leaders in particular?

Linda Griffin: 25:32

There is a great question that and it's sort of always a work in progress for me, but personally I expect the executive leadership team to do the same. Obviously, I'm of a certain vintage, so it's very relatable to me. I think it is insulting to put a mature and when I mean say mature I mean an experienced practitioner through the same drool every time. And at some point you also need to differentiate, as you would in a class. What does somebody in the first five years of their career need versus somebody in the next stage? And the next stage they're after?

Linda Griffin: 26:08

But using that part of the workforce as your wisdom force, I think people listen really well when they have felt honored in being heard. And so when you're talking about concepts in meetings, extracting the wisdom from the elders is a respectful thing to do. Obviously, if the elders become patronizing to those coming through, then you want to shut that down because that's not really what that's about. But I think just extracting all the juice, the wisdom, from everybody, is a really smart thing to do. And second to that, senior teachers and level three teachers and people that haven't even decided to do level three or C that doesn't mean that they have less knowledge. I think coaching role, getting them involved with the stuff coming through, and when I joined the current school I read everybody's PMs from way back when.

Linda Griffin: 27:03

And then I went back and had conversations with a few people about you seem to be on a great trajectory here and then suddenly it's like everything stopped for you, and really listening to those stories why it stopped, and then understand so it stopped then where are you now? Listening to what space they're in now and redefining not reinventing, just redefining and often people will say, look, I feel like I've done it all, I just don't feel like getting involved to that extent. I just don't feel like getting involved to that extent anymore. But then being part of a committee just to be a guiding force or to be coaching is often something that then really interests them. Have I answered your question, Jenny?

Jenny Cole: 27:42

I feel like I've got my attract Absolutely. And there's often a point, as you just articulated, that people become disengaged and it's sometimes useful to go back and find out when that point was and what caused it. And it could have just been. We had a principal five years ago. Every time I put up my hand, they said no, no, we don't need to hear from you because this young gun's got it or whatever it is, and the person goes all right, I'm just backing away. Or they just could be in a phase of their life where they've got elderly parents and kids and grandkids where they've just chosen to back away just a little bit. And you gave a couple of lovely suggestions for how to just honour what they bring. There are two things here.

Linda Griffin: 28:23

I think we have to acknowledge that somebody who is in a very advanced stage of their career and I have used this before when you and I have chatted but they're no longer snorkeling, they're no longer doing bright and shiny lights, because they've done that epiphany so many times already. They're in a deep, introspective phase of what the learning looks like and they're not having daily or weekly or annual epiphanies, they're just doing a deep, deep practice. That's what I mean about honoring that. Sometimes people think that their older teachers are cynical. They're not cynical. They're actually asking the tough questions right up front because they have the experience to see what that trip looks like, that you're taking them on. So don't be annoyed when they ask you the difficult questions at the beginning. As a young aspirant leader, you know who they are and you probably have a little fear of them. So go behind the scenes and go and have a little chat with them and say look, looking at this program in your experience, what do you think? Where could it go right and where can it go wrong? Now you've had a behind the scenes chat. They feel respected because you've asked them. Doesn't mean they're going to support what you're suggesting, but at least you know, and now you're not going to get sabotaged in a meeting with that. So ask the deep sea divers the tough questions behind the scenes well beforehand. So you work through the blocks, you ask them what would we need to do to make this successful? So you get their advice and then you transparently address it in the meeting, right at the get-go. So those who cannot listen to you until they've got the problem sorted out and there are many of them they can't listen to anything new until you get past the things that are blocking them. So address it right up at the front and then get on with it.

Linda Griffin: 30:21

Don't be fearful, as a young leader, of avoiding people who you think aren't going to agree with you. Go and align yourself with them and hear their perspective. Don't shut them down, don't call them troublemakers. There's a time where you think, okay, hold on a minute, we have now done all of this and you are cynical. So what we will do now is we'll just hold you accountable to a benchmark.

Linda Griffin: 30:44

There is a time and a place for that, but it's certainly not at the beginning. You have to suspend judgment and, jean, as you always say, remain curious for as long as possible and, as I said earlier on, you'll drive people nuts with that level of patience, but that's your job to remain patient. And I know it works, because I've had people that have disengaged to a point where they are negative and cynical and I ask myself what is going on here for this person? Are they swimming in the wrong pond? Are they exhausted and they need a sea change? What is it that they need? And I try and help them with that, and I know from many years of experience that I have turned around many a disengaged person, and it is very seldom that things aren't just right at work and you say, okay, I'm not the psychologist, you're not people's psychologist. The point is it's playing out in your workspace and you need to deal with it.

Jenny Cole: 31:43

Brilliant advice about getting closer to the person who you're potentially fearful of because you might be a great deal younger and they might be a great deal grumpier, for whatever reason, get closer, find out what the objections are. You said, raise it up front. This could be some of the problems, and when you do that, they hear. Oh, she listened or he listened to me, and we just want to be heard, we want to be valued, and so that's such brilliant advice about how a young leader might engage a more experienced staff. Right towards the end, you talked about holding people accountable. I have never met anybody who was able to have those difficult accountability conversations more in the moment than you do. So we can all do it if it's scripted and we've set aside a time, but you seem to do it quite well in the moment and you say things this is not our culture, or this is not how we do it around here, or this is what you're accountable for. Have you always been able to do that, or is that something that came with it?

Linda Griffin: 32:45

To be honest with you, I'm absolutely one of those people that was not born a leader. I had to learn everything along the way and I've gotten more confident and I think it's about good leaders are socially and emotionally mature. The more you live your values authentically, the stronger you can speak them and the more you understand and each year it feels like the depth of it. I increasingly understand it of what the role is that you've stepped into. Back in the day, everybody belonged to a church, everybody belonged to a scout group, everybody had a community they belonged to. Increasingly, the school has become the central hub of where people's entire family dynamic play out and where they get an increased sense of belonging. I've mostly worked in schools where we do have large international communities and I know what that school means to a community, that extra reaching out. So for me it is about authentically living and working, and the two are fluid. It's not my job that I go to. It's the way I am in life and I think when we talk about time management, I think people from the outside would look at how I do things and go. That's not the best use of her time. But it's what I value is about community, not the best use of her time, but it's what I value is about community children, teachers, everybody belonging in that space we've created, because mental well-being is not a poster on a wall. Mental well-being is about feeling connected and I know that if a teacher feels they really belong in this place, if they feel honored, then those children are going to benefit, and that's our core business. And when parents feel like they belong, and children are going to benefit, and that's our core business. And when parents feel like they belong and they're connected to you, those children benefit and our core business is children. So it's really about when you understand that and it's embedded in you, the language flows from you more readily, and sometimes I get it right and sometimes I get it wrong.

Linda Griffin: 34:48

And it's when I get it wrong is when unexpected things happen to me. That is so not what I was expecting to happen, that I'm not in my strongest moment, but I do recover from it and there is always a place to go back and say when that happened I was not comfortable with it and moving forward. This is what I expect, because I think, as leaders, we berate ourselves every time we get it wrong and we go from being strong leaders with strong core values and vision to people feeling like imposters in our roles because we didn't manage something simple really well. But we aren't just human and we just keep going and we keep learning. And the thing is when you're doing what you do authentically.

Linda Griffin: 35:32

And for me, I've decided I'm leading with vulnerability, so that means I'm not warping around with a shield on, so it's actually quite easy to hurt me, right? I've got to be strong and I've got to be vulnerable. It takes courage to do that, but I honestly think that 98% of the time it works in my favor and 2% of the time it physically cripples me when it hurts.

Jenny Cole: 35:58

Yes.

Linda Griffin: 35:59

But that's the courage of you, as a leader, to lead in the way that you believe. Otherwise, just what is the point?

Jenny Cole: 36:06

This is what I always love about conversations with you is that you are able to show me connections between things that I know very well, but I had never connected before. So I asked you that question about difficult conversations, and my very next question was going to be about authenticity and what that means to you, and you actually said that the connection I just made then was it is easier to have a difficult conversation when you are authentic, and being authentic means you understand your values, you understand who you are, and so it flows easily from you because it's not something I've made up, it is me. So if it's one of my values or if this culture is really important, I don't have to have a difficult conversation because, authentically, I'm able to say that's not good enough, we talked about, or that's not how we do it here, and it's not a difficult conversation, it's just a values-based conversation.

Linda Griffin: 37:04

Yeah, look, nobody likes to run into a thorn hedge bush every day, but often you do have to. It just comes with the job. Is that pleasant? No, of course it's not pleasant. I think the other part of leading authentically in a vulnerable way and being true to your values is also to remain open to that what you value may not be what somebody else values, but you are the leader of that organization, and so now I'm speaking really about the principle.

Linda Griffin: 37:35

Ultimately, you are the one that is leading that organization, and the culture you lead is the culture that needs to be embedded. And if it's a true culture that is good for children, that is good for teachers, that is good for community, then there should be no reason for people not to be able to align to it. And so when someone trespasses the core value of what is good for your organizational culture, you do need to address it. You have to go through it, not around it, even if it takes you a while to get your thoughts together, because otherwise what you're doing and what you're leading is being eroded. And so you might be going out there and doing good things, but if somebody is sabotaging it in a different way, then, it's transient, it's not going to last the distance.

Linda Griffin: 38:26

Of course they have to be open to that. Sometimes what you think was really valuable may not have been the most valuable thing and somebody is telling you something else is more valuable, and that's where your ego has to step aside and say you've given me something to think about there, I'm going to think about it and in future I will reprioritize it. But if you're not able to speak that way, then how can you expect those you're leading to demonstrate the same kind of vulnerability? Because you have to be the example of it. It's not an easy gig. That's why I keep saying if you're coming into this gig for control, you're making the wrong path You've given us plenty of pearls of wisdom, but is there a specific thing that you wish that all I mean?

Jenny Cole: 39:10

we've talked about ego. We've talked about a whole variety of things that early career leaders need to be aware of, but is there a mistake that you often see them make that you could alert them to and perhaps some way that they can work around that? Do you see any early lead?

Linda Griffin: 39:27

I think time management is one, and I think people management you don't need to manage people is the key thing there. But let's go to time. I think it's. Should we talk about time management?

Jenny Cole: 39:38

Yes, that'd be great, Thank you.

Linda Griffin: 39:39

In terms of PDs, the first thing you want to do is do a disk and a print and get Jenny to analyze it for you, and I think that, in terms of people management, those two courses are those two are just absolutely invaluable. Those two tools thanks, Jenny are absolutely invaluable. But I think time management is a critical thing and I think the Eisenhower model, the matrix, the one about you haven't got it near me now, but what's important, what has to happen now, what is urgent?

Linda Griffin: 40:09

and urgent and important and yeah, understanding what you've got to do, what you can delegate, I'll find, because of the mass of tasks that come, being really sure you don't put other people's monkeys on your back is just we spoke about that earlier. But honestly, people just go and listen to Jenny podcast and make sure you take the advice from that. So the thing that I'm made a big mistake earlier on and I'm I've got a lot better at it, but that pending file, because not everything you tackle you're going to resolve it in that minute and so your pending pending file keep going back to this. Find a really good way to timeline your projects. I'm sure there must be online tools for that. I haven't got it, but I would love to find one where this job is a bit like the slag system on your emails yeah.

Linda Griffin: 41:00

But I find when I have got myself into trouble it's because something was pending and I didn't go back to it and not being scared to delegate. I think even now I've heard that the school is too big to take on all the projects oneself, so you have to delegate. And when you delegate you want to set people up for success, so you must make sure that they have the tools to do the job that you've delegated to them. And then you need to not micromanage them, because that's quickest way to insult somebody. So the language around that is how often will we check in? And so that's not that I'm controlling you. It's that, because people are teachers by nature, have a lot of initiatives. So that's about checking in with people.

Linda Griffin: 41:43

Why do you want to manage your time? Because if you manage your time well, you'll have more time, and if you manage your time well, your stress levels will come down and then you have a better lifestyle. So I think the SMART goals are really good about being specific, having measurable goals, achievable goals, relevant and being timely. When can you achieve them? Prioritizing your tasks and when you set goals, are you setting goals that are actually meaningful? What is the time limit?

Linda Griffin: 42:13

Emails can take up a lot of time. So for me, I only check emails when I get there in the morning, and then I'll check again at 11 o'clock and I might check again at four o'clock. Brilliant advice, brilliant. The other thing about constantly being interrupted and saying, okay, I'll come straight away instead of parking it and going when you have a moment, is that every time we know this every time you step away, it's going to take you another 10 minutes to get back into what you were doing, and you don't have to have a theme and meeting with people all the time.

Linda Griffin: 42:45

Our best meetings are let me walk to your classroom with you. Are you okay if I walk with you to your classroom and we just discuss this? Well, somebody is on duty, they are watching everything, but you're still able to talk and catch it all. Every email doesn't have to be a manuscript. It can just be bullet point notes, so little things like that. But I think checking in regularly in managing things is important. It always fascinates me when people say I'll talk to them about that in performance management, I'll talk to them. I think that's a bit saying I'll tell you about your child when your report comes. Yes, if you have a real relationship.

Linda Griffin: 43:22

The performance management shouldn't actually take three hours Well it shouldn't anyway Legally it shouldn't, but it should just be a confirmation of what the two of you already understand about one another. I think when I place things in terms of time management, the questions that go through my mind is who's waiting for this information? How urgent is it? Who's it impacting? What's going to be the domino effect if I don't do this immediately? So that's how I prioritize what's going to happen. If I need to do a speech at the end of the year, I'm already dropping things into a folder. I might listen to a little podcast or something to inspire me. So the long-term things that are important. So it's just about managing that fluidly all the time. That's in terms of time management.

Jenny Cole: 44:08

Linda, we're going to have to have you on again because we're starting to run out of time, but I'm really curious to use my phrase over again. What have? We not talked about today, that you would like to talk about, that you think we may have missed, I think, in terms of people management is understanding inner school, because people respond to relationships.

Linda Griffin: 44:30

This is stuff that you're not going to find in a textbook, but you really need to understand how things work.

Linda Griffin: 44:37

If you're in a leadership position, you have to develop strategically a very strong workforce around you.

Linda Griffin: 44:49

Force around you the person that is the most difficult for you to work with is also the person you are going to learn the most from, because they are approaching life in an opposite way to you, and that's okay, because you're the most difficult person in their life too, and so if you get your ego out of the way, you're going to learn from one another, and that's just tricky stuff, but it's real core value stuff.

Linda Griffin: 45:09

If you want things to work, you just have to commit to that. If you say to people my door is open to you to come and talk whenever you want to, you can beat your bottom dollar. They have thought about it a lot before they've come to your door to talk to you, so then you need to be absolutely present in that moment, and if you think you're going to struggle to get them out of the door, you need to have well equipped with summarizing language that when you're able to get a breath in there when they're talking. Summarize what they're saying move forward, but be future focused, not past focused, but be future focused, not past focused. Always get somebody whose mind is troubled to focus on the future.

Jenny Cole: 45:52

That is an excellent place to end, Linda Griffin. Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your wisdom with us. We will put a link to where you can perhaps contact or follow Linda. You'd much prefer to follow her art, I do. I mean, I love your wisdom about schools and leadership, but your art is beautiful, thank you Jen. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and I hope my audience got as much from today's episode as I did also.

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