Building Positive Relationships and Intentional Leadership in Education with Alice Vigors

 

Jenny Cole: 1:02

And welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. My name's Jenny Cole and this is where we explore leadership coaching, pathways to creating positive change, especially for new aspiring and middle leaders, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Alice Vigors. Welcome, Alice.

Alice Vigors: 1:20

Thanks for having me. Jenny, Really excited for the conversation.

Jenny Cole: 1:23

Pleasure. Alice is an educational leader and innovator with a deep commitment to cultivating creativity, leadership and high quality teaching in schools. She's got an impressive background in curriculum development, instructional leadership and professional learning and she's currently the relieving principal in our New South Wales Department of Education School. She's the founder of Thinking Pathways, including the podcast, and co-host of the Teacher Takeaway podcast. We're excited to dive into her insights on leadership, creativity, education and how we can nurture our future leaders in schools. Thanks again for being here, Alice. Our you share a little bit about your leadership journey to this point and its various turns and the ways that you've ended up where you've ended up?

Alice Vigors: 2:18

Yeah, so it's kind of been a little bit of a journey. It's kind of folded over the last probably 12 years. I've been teaching in education for about 15 years and it was probably in maybe my fourth year of teaching where my principal tapped me on the shoulder and said we want you to take on the role of IT coordinator. It was quite big back in the late 2000s, early 2010s, that kind of space in time and so I was like oh, I reluctantly kind of took that on and he nurtured me in that space and helped develop me as a leader supporting others. And from there I guess it just kind of I found myself in other leading roles. I went into the sports coordinator space working at a district zone level and then jumped into the curriculum space. It really is my happy place looking at curriculum and supporting others in the curriculum space. So I've spent a lot of time working with curriculum leaders, leading teaching and learning across the school.

Alice Vigors: 3:24

I happened to apply for an assistant principal role in the department New South Wales Department of Education and got that right at the peak of the COVID first COVID wave. So I picked up my family and moved halfway across the state during a lockdown to take on this leadership role, which was really an interesting space. To kind of lead from Working in a brand new school with students that I'd never engaged with before, new staff, new community, new families was a really interesting space, but it was also one that taught me a lot about leadership and leading from a position where you're not well known but also having to use different tools and different devices to lead others. From there I jumped into an assistant principal, curriculum and instruction role, so back into the curriculum space again, and I'm currently relieving as principal. So I've had a lot of different leadership roles and a lot of different mentors that helped me to develop my skills as a leader, and a few that saw the potential and went you're ready, it's time, let's go. Okay.

Jenny Cole: 4:50

I was gonna ask you what do you think that first principle saw in you?

Alice Vigors: 4:55

I think he saw someone who was passionate about education, passionate about helping others. Always, everything that I kind of do, I do from a lens of I want to help others, I want to support others, and if I can create something or share something or do something that makes someone else's job in education that little bit easier, then that fills my bucket. So I think he saw those things and he saw my willingness to help others without seeking any gratification or recognition for it, and he said why don't we just put you in a leadership space and formally develop those skills that you're already working with and working on?

Jenny Cole: 5:45

You said earlier that he mentored you and gave you some of those skills. Do you remember some of those skills that he suggested that you learn now that you are moving out of a teaching space and into a leading space?

Alice Vigors: 5:57

I think a lot of it was around learning how to be a coach and a mentor to others. Being a teacher in the classroom, you're the one responsible for everything that happens in that space, but it's very different when you step out of that realm to work with others. It's not a do, as I say, do, it's how can I help you to achieve the goals that you want for you as a practitioner and for your students, and removing that space where it's all about me and I'm the knowledgeable other, so I'll just tell you what to do. So he really helped me to start to see that difference and look at how I could walk side by side with others to support them as opposed to doing it for them or telling them what I wanted them to do.

Jenny Cole: 6:49

It is the ultimate mindset shift, isn't it? When you move out of a classroom is you're full of knowledge and you just want to tell other people. This is how it works for me. Go and do it like this, or that. They're busy people and they come to you with a problem. You go, let me fix it, let me fix it. Whereas both of those options are disempowering. Whereas the walking alongside option, it takes a bit more restraint, it takes a bit more intention, but it's always the better option, and you are so lucky to learn that early in your career and for someone to notice that that's what you needed. He sounds like a very wise principal. He was. Yes, I'm also curious. So there you are, moving to the other side of New South Wales, in the middle of a pandemic, to work with a community that you've never worked with and a staff that you don't know and kids you don't have relationships with. What were your learnings in that situation? When you look back now, with a couple of years' hindsight, what are your big takeaways from that situation?

Alice Vigors: 7:47

I think it gave me the opportunity to really focus just on building strong relationships with staff and with students, getting to know people and what they liked in and outside of the COVID environment.

Alice Vigors: 8:02

The focus was still there on learning but it wasn't, I guess, as rigorous as you have when you're face-to-face in a classroom and everybody's on site at school. So it kind of allowed the opportunity to really have that as a focus. Look at ways that I could be intentional about building those relationships, getting to know the school community, the students that I was working with, the staff that I was leading fairly quickly. So that was one of the biggest things that I learned was that in that moment or in that year 18 months, however long it lasted relationships really were the key. And looking at how do we support the mental health of people when they can't go out not go outside but go beyond the gates of their or the boundaries of their house. Many people weren't interacting much with others. So how do we support that as well as keep that learning ticking over and keep that learning happening it was that space, I think was a very steep learning curve and looking for ways to get creative around supporting mental health and things like that in a remote environment.

Jenny Cole: 9:15

Relationships, relationships, relationships. How have you taken that into your current role? The?

Alice Vigors: 9:21

role of a principal is all about relationships.

Alice Vigors: 9:23

It's all about people management your team of executive and your team of teachers and support staff.

Alice Vigors: 9:30

They're the ones on the ground doing that nitty-gritty work day in, day out, and my role is, I see it, as a facilitator in terms of making sure that the environment is conducive for the work that they do, making sure that our school culture is a positive one that helps all staff to grow, making sure that our students have what they need to be the best possible learners, making sure that our parents are engaging positively with our school community and interacting with the learning of the kids.

Alice Vigors: 10:04

So my role, I see, is all about building positive relationships with all members of the school community, and I have four students, so a reasonable-sized community where I've got a staff of 35. And so it's a big job to maintain a lot of relationships day in, day out. But one of the things that I find really beneficial for me as the leader is, every morning and every afternoon I'm out at the gate, welcoming every student by name into the school community, saying good morning to all the teachers as they walk past to the staff room, or to go and photocopy whatever they need for the day welcoming the parents, in saying goodbye at the end of the day. I think, in the role that I'm in, it's so important that we're intentional about being available and being welcoming and modelling the behaviour that we want to see from others.

Jenny Cole: 11:04

So who have you got on your senior leadership team? Do you have assistant deputy principals? How many people are helping you do that?

Alice Vigors: 11:12

So I have we're a team of eight my executives, I have a school administrative manager and then I have six assistant principals on my team. So I find that it's quite a large executive team. But I love that each person brings their own perspectives, their own thoughts and opinions around different things so that we're not siloed into always thinking the same way. I love when the team has differing opinions and is able to share that in a respectful way so that we get to a point where we're delivering the best possible outcomes for the kids.

Jenny Cole: 11:55

So what would a successful middle leader in your school look like? Do be like. What are some of the skills and qualities and attributes that a good middle leader would have? Do you think?

Alice Vigors: 12:06

One of the things that we've been quite intentional around focusing on is how we show up for ourselves and how we show up for others. So really looking at developing self as a leader. Now, I mentioned before that it's one thing to be in the classroom. It's quite another thing to step out and lead a team of people and it requires a different skill set and it's not something. Particularly when I started and stepped into the middle leadership space, it wasn't something that I had a lot of formal training around.

Alice Vigors: 12:43

It's pick up bits and pieces here and there and had some mentors that were quite good in mentoring me in different spaces. But we have a really strong focus on the self-awareness piece, the social and emotional intelligence piece, and we're always looking at above the line, below the lines, how am I interacting with others? What are the impact I'm having as a leader on my team? Looking at how do we develop ourselves as coach and mentor, not just as the expert, because most of the time middle leaders get to that position because they are expert classroom practitioners Doesn't always translate into really strong, positive leaders. So really being intentional about supporting middle leaders in that space and developing their skills and capacities as middle leaders.

Jenny Cole: 13:36

And it's nice to have a cohort as large as you've got, because that allows you to do some, I would imagine, some really good quality conversations and professional learning about that. I'm not normally one to look for problems, but can you think of a time when, if you don't have that good social and emotional awareness that a middle leader can stuff up, get things wrong, perhaps make things worse, without naming names, of course? Can you think of a time when either you or one of your team has perhaps not had the self-reflection or insight that they needed and it's made the situation worse?

Alice Vigors: 14:09

Yeah, I find with the team that when people are tired, when things get really busy, it's quite easy to fall off the wagon and snap at a member of staff or shut people down because you're just not in the space to be able to take on any more information or perspectives. And it happens we all do it, regardless of our position or title, and so it's about others helping us to recognise when we're in that space. My leadership coach talks about it being in the box. We're quite insular, we're in that space. My leadership coach talks about it being in the box. We're quite insular, we're in the box. We don't have the space or the capacity to see beyond how we're feeling and beyond the narrative that we're telling ourselves.

Alice Vigors: 14:54

And so we're developing an environment at my school where others will step in and say look, I noticed that you're a bit short with so-and-so, or I noticed that you're not quite yourself. Do you want to have a chat about it? And it generally opens up some positive lines of communication around. Well, actually, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment. It's like, okay, well, how can I support you? What can I do to help you in that space and get out of the box and just provide an environment where we can openly talk about how we're feeling and how we can then manage that and move forward.

Alice Vigors: 15:28

And it's quite tricky to create that environment where people feel safe enough to go well, I'm not okay, or I need a bit of help, or I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, or everything seems to be going wrong. People particularly I find educators we don't want to admit when we've stuffed up and we don't want to admit when we're wrong and think it's important to have someone that you critical friend, who will turn around and tell you that you're not yourself or that interaction you had with that staff member wasn't okay. Need those people in your life.

Jenny Cole: 15:59

And that takes a lot of trust. Congratulations for trying to build that. I mean the buzzword is psychological safety, but it's trust between individuals that say I trust that your feedback is trying to make me the best person that I am, that I can be, and that it's not nasty or negative but so important because we can't, as you say, when we're in the box, we can't see often that we're being snappy or sarcastic, and if you've had those conversations about above and below the line behaviours, I mean we know when we're tired or thirsty and haven't been to the toilet for three hours, which is most teachers and most school leaders likely to dip below the line.

Jenny Cole: 16:39

But, we've got a choice to get back up again and if we stay below the line, if our colleagues can say oi, that's a bit sarcastic, that's just a little trigger to remind you to go. Oh yeah, I'm allowed to be here, but I'm not allowed to stay here. You're all human. That's lovely. Now I'm going to change topics. In between all of the busy things that you've been doing, you managed to write a book empowering students as creative thinkers. What inspired you to write the book and what did you hope that educators took away from it?

Alice Vigors: 17:09

I suppose my publisher actually reached out to me. She'd been reading my blog on my website and she was like you know what? There's enough good content here. We could turn this into a book. And it's kind of one of those bucket list things that I was like. You know, I always really want to write a book.

Alice Vigors: 17:26

I was quite good at English at school and good at writing, and it was one of those. Maybe in another life I might be a writer and write a book. So when the opportunity came up, I was like you know what? Yeah, I really want to do that and was working a lot in the critical and creative thinking space looking at how you develop metacognitive processes with students, and it just kind of flowed out of me and it was one of those things where here's all of the things that I've learnt over the last kind of 10 years and all of the majority of the things that I'd been helping other educators beyond my school learn about and understand, and just wrapped it all up in a book and my hope for it was that one person reads it and can take something away from it that they can go oh, I can try that in my classroom tomorrow, or that helps me to really understand the critical and creative thinking space and how we develop metacognition with our young people.

Jenny Cole: 18:29

So that's how it came about. Fascinating, because sometimes I think we're getting lost entirely in the explicit instruction space and missing that there are other elements to students learning. How do you balance that in your head, particularly as a school leader? We know that kids need to know their phonics and their morphology and so forth, but they also need to be critical thinkers. What does that look like for you in your head or in your school?

Alice Vigors: 18:57

I think explicit teaching provides that really rich foundation in order for us to be able to develop and extend student thinking and really work in that metacognitive space. I often think of learning to swim. You have to have those foundational skills in order to be able to swim freely. So it's kind of not an either, or for me it's. You need explicit instruction. You have to explicitly develop the knowledge and the skills for students to be able to think about it, to work with it, to unpack it, to manipulate different concepts that you're exploring.

Alice Vigors: 19:37

One of the ways that I intentionally meld the two together is looking at the kind of verbs that we're asking students. So if I'm asking a child to identify something, where might be explicitly learning about something and I need them to identify a particular object, or I'm comparing and contrasting, really helping them to unpack what it means to think about something when I have to identify it and what does that look like? What does my thinking look like when I have to describe something and how are they different? And looking at helping the kids to understand the difference between what we're asking and then how do I apply those skills, so using different routines and structures to help them see those differences and unpack those differences and then look at how do I describe something in English when I'm perhaps describing a character in a story that I'm learning about or reading, and then what does that look like then when I'm in the mathematics classroom? How are they similar? How are they different? How am I using the same kinds of thinking? That's kind of where I sit with those two things.

Jenny Cole: 20:48

Yes, I think you're spot on. It's not an either or it's very difficult to have creative problem solving when you don't know the names of anything or you don't know. If you open the bonnet to the car and say to me, tell me how I'd improve this engine. Well, I don't know anything about the bits, and when I know a bit about the bits I might be able to get a bit creative around it, otherwise they just say just put glitter and sparkles on it.

Jenny Cole: 21:12

The early childhood special ed teacher definitely put sparkles on it. I love it. Anything for leaders what do you want leaders to know about creative thinking skills for kids? What can leaders do in their schools to promote this more broadly?

Alice Vigors: 21:32

I think for leaders it's an awareness of how metacognition works, the difference between critical and creative thinking, and then how do we help students in that space. So for leaders, it's first having your own understanding and awareness of it and then looking at how do I build in structures with my team that helps support that in the classroom. So using things like thinking routines is a really easy way to get started in that space. So using things like a See, think, wonder, think, puzzle, explore there's a whole raft of them that have come out of Dr Onrichardt's research from Harvard University that you can Google and it will come up with a whole raft of them and you can apply them in different curriculum areas for different situations to get the kids thinking about different things. So, see, think one is the one I always start with and it's the easiest one to implement, and I often start in the literacy space, doing a bit of work generally around visual literacy and getting the kids to unpack an image.

Alice Vigors: 22:44

You could use it even with a piece of text just to look at. Okay, well, what are we seeing? What are we noticing? What are we observing? What does that make us think about? How the characters relate to each other, or how the characters are interacting with the environment. Whatever, the think question is that you want them to explore and unpack. And then what is it that you wonder about? It could be around the character's motivations, or what are you wondering about? Where the story goes next All of those really rich questions that you can start unpacking and exploring with the kids. It's a really easy way to level up your instruction and really level up the way that you support kids, to think about their thinking and dive a little bit deeper into how we do things and why we do things and that kind of stuff.

Jenny Cole: 23:33

As you're talking. That framework is what we often use with staff when we're looking at data. What do you see? What are you thinking? What are you wondering about? It's a really good routine and I'm sure if we use it with teachers, then these kids will be able to use it if they become baker, if they become an engineer, thousand other things. Is that just that? What am I actually saying? What am I thinking about and what are some of my curious questions?

Alice Vigors: 23:57

I think that's a really important point is that if we want our teachers to be using it in classroom, we as leaders have to model what that looks like and so using it. The perfect example is with data. We use that routine at my school with data. There are a couple of other questions that we add to it, but looking at unpacking what we see, what are we, what's the data telling us, what's it not telling us? What are your thoughts around the strengths of that cohort or the areas for further development?

Alice Vigors: 24:26

All of those kinds of things is a really nice way to model for staff how that routine helps us to separate our thought processes out. Initially it's kind of really clunky in terms of we look at this part and then we look at this component of thought. But the more that we do it, the more that we practice it, the more routine it becomes and the more comfortable we feel in using it. And you get to a point where staff and students don't even realise that they're using that structure to help them unpack something that they're learning about.

Jenny Cole: 24:59

And when it's embedded like that, if they come across a problem that is not solvable or you can't think, they can try another routine. It's a tool that perhaps works in most cases, but doesn't work in others, and so that's when they have to critically think about is this the right tool to be using in this situation, which is ultimately where you want people to get to? It also dawned on me that it's not dissimilar to the thinking frameworks that we teach. When I'm talking about challenging conversations or you might be talking about other things with kids, which is when I saw you on playground supervision on your phone, that made me think that you weren't watching the kids. I'm wondering if I've got the right thought. You can use the framework for a whole variety of things. It's about structuring your thinking Awesome. You've talked a bit about mentorship and coaching. How important has that been for you and how do you promote that with the new and aspiring leaders that you work with?

Alice Vigors: 25:56

I think it's really, really important that a leader finds someone that they trust that will give them really solid advice and challenge their thinking around the different approaches that they use. I have two leadership coaches that I have in the principal role, and you can kind of get away with not having one, but I think you're so much better when you do have one, because you've got somebody who's experienced in the role, who knows hopefully knows what good leadership looks like, but is able to kind of go okay. Well, why did you do that? Have you thought about doing something this way? Have you read this book? This might help you. Have you listened to this podcast? Whatever it might be?

Alice Vigors: 26:45

But also as that sounding board, I've got this problem or this struggle and I just need to bounce somebody, and particularly in the role of principal, you can't do that kind of stuff majority of the time with staff. I can't go to a teacher and go oh my God, I've got this struggle with a staff member. Can you help me? It's just not okay. So having a coach and a mentor provides you that other person, and it's generally someone who's not.

Alice Vigors: 27:13

If you can find someone who's not connected to the school, it's even better, because they're impartial and they have that critical awareness of the everyday stuff that goes on, so there's no kind of bias in their advice. So I definitely recommend finding somebody, even if it is somebody on staff. If you're someone aspiring to the middle leadership space, finding someone on staff that you kind of look up to and go okay, this is something that I want. Are you happy to help me develop my skills or help me understand the role a little bit more so that when I do get there, I'm feeling that little bit more prepared to tackle the challenges that you need to tackle as a middle leader?

Jenny Cole: 27:54

Yeah, great advice that you don't need a coach all the time, but you do need someone once you've got into a leadership role, someone who understands the context but is not so deep in the context that they can't see the wood for the trees, and sometimes their only job is to help you get out of that box and realise that you're in the box and that you can't see the wood for the trees, because there's only so much our families or our friends can listen.

Jenny Cole: 28:21

They want to protect us, so you do have to find somebody who can be that sounding board, that wellbeing person. Again, changing slightly, you're the co-host of the Teach Takeaway podcast, which has been going for quite some time now and lots of episodes. Kudos to you, because I know how difficult that that can be. What inspired you to do that and what are some of your takeaways from hosting so many fabulous guests over the years?

Alice Vigors: 28:47

So I hosted with three other educational leaders. It was something we started during lockdown as kind of a way to have connection with other leaders, while we were not able to kind of branch out, but also as a way to kind of provide other educators with different ideas and thoughts around how we were doing things in our schools. And then later seasons, so I think season two was when we started inviting guests onto the podcast, just kind of branching out and going hey, well, how do other people do things, what's their advice? Getting knowledgeable others and experts in different parts of education to kind of share their wisdom with our audience. There's been a lot of different topics that we've covered. So we're four seasons in now. So we started in 2020, which seems so long ago and there's so many rich conversations.

Alice Vigors: 29:46

But what I like most about doing the podcast and one of the things that I take away from it, is that everybody comes to education from a different point. Some people they go straight out of school or quite often when we talk to guests, it's, it's oh, it wasn't my first choice. I fell into education or I've come to it as a second career, or I love hearing how people got to where they are, the journeys that have kind of led them to the space that they're working in and then hearing about their passions and what it is that they have to share with the education community. There's probably not one episode that I can go, you know. Well, that's my absolute favorite, but there are quite a few where the guests have really kind of excited me and it's like, yeah, like you know, you're my, you're my people, yep yep, yep.

Jenny Cole: 30:43

Which kind of circles back to where we talked about relationship. As a podcast host, you build a relationship with the person on the other side of the microphone and hope that the audience also hears that, and I often talk about the fact that we don't talk enough to our colleagues about how did you get here? What lights you up? What are you most passionate about? Maybe we should have internal podcasts where we interview each other in schools to find out what our colleagues actually you get here, what lights you up? What are you most passionate about? Maybe we should have internal podcasts where we interview each other in schools to find out what our colleagues actually you know, because I'm always surprised when I asked at workshops is this your first career?

Jenny Cole: 31:15

I work mainly in the special ed space. When I'm, I used to and most people don't wake up in the morning and want to be a special ed teacher. They've got there by accident and hearing what the accidental journey was. I always find fascinating everything from managing accountants to people who were diesel fitters and all sorts of stuff, and you don't know if you don't ask.

Alice Vigors: 31:37

So yeah, absolutely. I was talking to somebody the other day on the podcast who's in the coaching space. It's a coaching to be better coaches and mentors. But their journey to education they started off as a marketing in the marketing space and realised, oh, that wasn't for them and decided, oh well, I actually rather teach people and more passionate about that, so they went that way.

Jenny Cole: 32:00

But it's, yeah, it's interesting, but when they end up in a year two classroom, nobody says what did you do before this? So we often don't take time to find out. So what's next for you? Any upcoming projects or initiatives that you're working on?

Alice Vigors: 32:14

I'm halfway through a new book. Oh, that's the big project that I've got going on at the moment, so it should be released early 2025, sometime in the new year. So, looking, it's probably going to be called the learning classroom. So piggybacking off the thinking classroom. Looking at how do we make learning visible and so looking at some of the visible learning structures. So looking at learning intention, success criteria, how do we give and receive effective feedback. Looking at assessment, which are all the part of core components of explicit teaching. So looking at how do we maximise that whilst also developing the thinking of our students. So that's the current big project I've got going on outside of school.

Jenny Cole: 33:07

Yes, my deepest respect. I was going to write a book this year and then I decided it was just too much hard work. So congratulations for getting one out there into the world and halfway through the next one, Alice. We're going to wrap it up shortly, but I'm wondering if you can give advice to all leaders, but particularly middle or aspiring leaders. What are some of the things that they could read, listen to, attend? How could they build their knowledge, become better leaders?

Alice Vigors: 33:36

I love and I'm currently working with my leadership team. We've got a bit of a book study happening around Gavin Griff's five ways of being, really looking at books that make you reflect on who you are as a leader and how you show up, but a lot of. I think the advice that I would give to middle leaders is to work and develop yourself as a leader. Really look at things that you can read, podcasts that you can listen to. Even if there's any coaching courses out there or whatever that focus on you as a leader. You have to know yourself and develop yourself in order to understand and develop others.

Alice Vigors: 34:20

So I would really recommend starting with yourself first. It sounds selfish. You're leading others and they're expecting you to have all the knowledge and expertise in that space, but if you don't know who you are as a leader and how you show up and the little nuances that you have, then you're not going to have that awareness around how that impacts the team that you're working with and how you can leverage your strengths to support others. Or look at identifying the strengths of others where you might not have that strength. So I would really recommend starting there.

Jenny Cole: 34:55

I could not agree more. I think that's excellent advice, and sometimes new leaders are just desperate for new knowledge about policy and curriculum, and that's not where they've got to make their biggest mistakes. So thank you for sharing that, Alice. We are going to make sure that people can connect with you via LinkedIn, via your blog, where they can perhaps even purchase your current book and your new one when it comes out. So thank you so much for your generosity today. Is there anything final that you'd like to say before we sign off for the?

Alice Vigors: 35:27

day. I suppose just thanks for having me on the podcast. I've really enjoyed the conversation and really am passionate about helping others and particularly middle leaders, you know, helping them to build their capacity. Make sure that you've got that critical friend that can be that sounding board looking at being reflective of yourself as a practitioner. But don't be ever afraid to ask for help. We don't expect you to know it all and to have all of the pearls of wisdom. So do reach out and ask for help with whoever that might be to help ease your journey lovely.

Jenny Cole: 36:00

Thank you so much, Alice.

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