Listening To and Seeking Feedback with Morgan Shaw

Admin: 1:02

Hi, it's Vicki, the podcast editor here. Jenny and Morgan recorded this episode during an electrical storm and, despite my best efforts, the quality isn't great and it appears to have stopped recording at 21 minutes.

Jenny Cole: 1:16

Welcome back to Positively Leading, the podcast. I'm Jenny Cole, and joining me today is Morgan Shaw. Good morning, Morgan.

Morgan Shaw: 1:25

Good morning Jenny. How are you today?

Jenny Cole: 1:27

I'm okay. I first met Morgan when she participated in one of my women in leadership courses and on the first day of those courses we do our disc management profiles to find out what kind of leadership style we are. And I read her assessment, obviously before she did, and realised that she was a much higher I than even I was. So eyes lead with energy and enthusiasm and collaboration, and I'm a high I and Morgan's even higher. So I think it was at that point that I decided that we probably needed to be friends, which we are. Do you remember what your, what your reaction to your disc style was?

Morgan Shaw: 2:07

It made sense. So when I read the profile that you gave us, I kind of identified with everything like the positives I guess the association of some negatives too that I saw. And I connected straight away with my leadership and I asked for a photo of it straight away and sent it to my husband and he said who did this test? Who gave you these responses? So it was so authentic and true and in that moment, when I was reading my shadow stuff or things that I could improve on and how I come across to people, especially in different profiles, straight away I identified people. I was like I messed up, I am overbearing for those people and I need to make sure that I get them on board. And how do I get them on board so straight away? I was like taking notes, highlighting and using my disc profile to help me in that moment for future times.

Jenny Cole: 2:49

Yeah, it's quite a revelation. Well, it was for me that my sheer enthusiasm could actually be off-putting to some people Who'd have thought Not me actually.

Morgan Shaw: 2:58

In that moment. I reflected on some situations and I was like oh, my goodness, this explains everything.

Jenny Cole: 3:03

Yes, so do you want to take us quickly through your leadership journey today and then we might dig into some bits as we go through?

Morgan Shaw: 3:12

There weren't many jobs around in Perth, so I went out to the wheat field and I had a beautiful year, one class, and then it was put out to everyone and on the whole staff anyone would just step up and do some days as a deputy and I said no and I got an email back saying that I had two days and I clarified that I'd said no and they were like we just think this would be a good opportunity for you to see if this space is for you, and I was nurtured by a young leader herself who gave me lots of confidence, and sometimes you don't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the room. You have to surround yourself with amazing people and you can lead. If you're a leader and you can pick up some skills, you can actually you can do it. I learned a lot. I went with two very wise women and I listened to everything, I wrote everything down and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a position that I was never going to permanently own, so therefore I applied out.

Morgan Shaw: 3:52

I applied for 37 jobs and got 37 rejections, and I actually want a job in Wickham and I was pretty disheartened at that point and I obviously don't have anything holding me back. So my husband and I were able to move up to Wickham and I had a deputy position there and, unfortunately, the principal left. So therefore, I did the acting principal and deputy role for a duration time and then, 17 weeks later, I saw an opportunity at another school in a local town and I jumped on that as a permanent position, and that was two and a half years of learning in a really, really large school in a big leadership team, which was completely different to what I previously done with small schools, small staff and in a different type of community. And then, the start of 2023, I won a permanent position in Perth, my first ever time teaching and working in Perth. So I've done a full year once again in a medium-sized school with a fellow deputy and a principal. So that's kind of where I'm at now.

Jenny Cole: 4:45

And for those people who aren't aware, Wickham is in the very, very, very, very far north of Western Australia, in the Pilbara, and you moved into another Pilbara school, so you've worked from the UK and all the way through Western Australia. What are the key kind of milestones in that where you thought, ah, that's where I learnt how to do that, or that's where I developed my leadership skill of X, y and Z?

Morgan Shaw: 5:09

I think, as I'm an eye and I'm a very high eye and I've had some very wise people around me and I've embraced lots of people who give me feedback I kind of learned from people to shut up and listen and that was a hard lesson that I've actually had to learn that it does work. Sometimes you can't go in like a bull in a China shop. You actually have to stop and listen to people who are on the ground and who are there. I learned that the hard way but always been very reflective on that practice. So hard lessons in listening first, always, always listen and then having a clear vision. But working with your team. You're there to help you there to drive, but you actually need a team around you to be on the same, having the same vision and wanting to go to the same destination as you, to move, I think, really working hard and what you say you do. So if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. That's shot me in the foot a few times as well, having all these big ideas and not being able to finish things because I'm so excited about the next thing and maybe not doing things authentically and to the best of my capacity or ability and jumping. So now I think I've been in leadership now for about five years I now understand the importance to my staff and to my community about me actually completing something and doing it well, rather than trying to do 5,000 things and making everyone kind of happy. It's kind of really important, like, what's our holistic vision? What are we doing as a community or as a school, and going forward together and actually taking time and breathing, doing research, which is something I don't do. I'm a very like let's go guns blazing. Everyone's like have a good time and actually work.

Morgan Shaw: 6:35

And reflecting upon my disk and being aware of that, my intensity is a lot and I don't have to change who I am. I don't have to tone it down, but I have to be aware of who I'm engaging. I want people to work with me and alongside me, so how do I get my team around me? And so I've learned a lot from different people and working with different bosses. I feel like sometimes you have to code switch. I've learned to code switch and, as a middle leadership, that's my role. Actually. I understand that the buck doesn't lie with me. I'm not the end, but I have to be the person that supports my boss but also supports the crew around me. So a lot of listening, learning, a lot of feedback, always, and, I guess, being open to listening to feedback and getting it wrong. And it's not the end of the world, but it's like how can I do better and be better? And, being reflective of that, put that answer to the question.

Jenny Cole: 7:20

Oh sure, and all of that is so funny. I said you're so much like me. I'm not a good finisher, I'm a really good starter. I have a thousand good ideas, but what the team around you needs is consistency and reliability to finish things off. But I also liked your point about you know, as a middle leader, you got to support the person above you but also the people below you, which is a really tricky spot to be in Up north. You had a really large school with really strong curriculum drives and processes. Do you want to talk a little bit about what your role there was and how you managed to support the school's vision but also support the staff, who, my guess is, were lots of graduates or a lot of new teachers?

Morgan Shaw: 8:04

Yeah, yeah. So being in the PILB route. Like I said, our biggest group of teachers are graduates and they start their journey with us and we give them a lot of professional learning at the start. So being a visible leader is really important for the school community, but it's actually really important for your teachers, and I learned that from literally being told to get out of my chair by lots of people like what are you doing in your office and you're like I've got so much to do, but actually your poor business in a school is actually being faced. You need your parents to see, you need your kids to see you, but you actually need your teachers to see you and your EA. You need them to feel like you are present and you understand the context and what they're going through. Because I think when you remove yourself from the classroom, you can become completely removed from issues and concerns that people have. So, being a present face, every morning I do my teacher walkthroughs before the kids came in, and then I do my parent community walkthroughs in the morning greeting everybody, and then I'd make sure that I'm in every classroom every morning as the kids are kind of starting before they start their phonics.

Morgan Shaw: 9:00

So I worked with full class to pre primary for year one classrooms. I had three kindy classrooms so I was managing about 16 teachers in that space. I was doing a little PR. So because I was one of four deputies, I was in a large space as marketing PR. I was doing student engagement.

Morgan Shaw: 9:18

We had an Aboriginal education kind of space as well that I managed, of different format and layout and I obviously learned early childhood but a big part was collaboration with my peers, so you almost have to let go of any ego and a big portfolio was also attendance.

Morgan Shaw: 9:33

We were very lucky being in the pill right up to work with Rio Tinto on a Aboriginal early learning center that was in collaboration with my school and I once presented and I learned this from my boss saying to me we are the Royal Wee, you're never an I, and she's right Like she was 100% correct because everything I did was as a team and there was phased leaders of that school, massive cohorts of teachers, and then we had people kind of the next step up who kind of managed a little bit more. So having 850 kids and so many bodies in lots of places, it was really important to be visible, to be approachable and just being able to be myself, but also kind of knowing what my role is as well and knowing we had really clear portfolios. People only came to me for certain things, which made the roles really clear and made my I guess priorities very succinct, so I wasn't confused of what my load of work was.

Jenny Cole: 10:24

I know in part of that role was not only to be visible and to support the early childhood but there was a sort of literacy, coaching, support, sort of making sure, yes. Do you want to talk a little bit about what that looked like in that particular school?

Morgan Shaw: 10:40

Yeah. So in classrooms every day, coaching regularly all teachers in all different facets, I guess wherever we saw needs, meeting our business plan and walking into a classroom. It's not common practice for everyone. Right To have someone come and sit in your room and watch and give feedback. It's quite daunting and especially I always find that back in my mind, people thinking, well, you haven't taught in a while, so what do you bring into the table? What do you actually know? So for me, it was obviously. I kept doing regular PL. I watched expert teachers teach. Therefore, I felt I didn't have to be an expert, but I had to know what good teaching looked like and I also had to know if someone needed something, who I could send that person to.

Morgan Shaw: 11:16

So we did a lot of coaching and I learned that maybe sometimes I didn't do a great job as well Coaching and I learned stuff from people I coach and I reflected upon that noise, made sure, right next time I'm going to spice this up and do this better, based on feedback I got from teachers, but it created that safety. I got feedback all the time from my boss. I was given feedback from peers and then vice versa, my teachers gave feedback, but we created that culture that it is normal to receive feedback and that's how we get better and improve. And it's not personal. You're actually there for the kids. So what's our common goal and how are we going to be better?

Morgan Shaw: 11:50

I was always done in a safe way and it was never. I love the way you did this. It was I could see you did this for this purpose, so it's not emotive. It was completely based on fact and not done a motive language which I think made everyone see it's not personalized. It wasn't favoritism either. It was I could see you did this, so it was always. I don't want to say a shit sandwich, but you always make sure you could pull positive things out and if something needed to be fixed or worked on. It wasn't your left on your own. I'm going to come back in six weeks and rip you a new one. It was always right. What can I do to help you?

Jenny Cole: 12:25

And so you moved from a really big, complex Pilbara school into what we refer to in Western Australia as a leafy green. So by the by the coast, wealthy, highly educated parents with not the kind of funding that often comes with those low socio economic schools. What was that transition like?

Morgan Shaw: 12:47

Hard, hard. It's been really different. I've only ever taught in the country. Obviously, london was different altogether, but I've only ever taught in country schools. So her schools are very different and they're funded very differently.

Morgan Shaw: 12:57

We don't have any people who bring in any additional funds, so we are like on the baseline, which is hard to come from a school where I've walked into a resource room and it's like going into office works and if I needed something, if I needed a resource for a child you know I need a sensory tool I could get it that day and make it happen. I'm not in that space anymore. So it's also I've gone back to being a little bit operational, just because the people power isn't around me, whereas, you know, we had five amazing people working in the front office. I could, you know, go. Oh, can you help me with this? You know, attendance issue. Right now I've got, you know, a school officer and MCS and I'm on my own this year as a deputy and one principal and we're not managing behaviors with children. But we have a lot of space that we need to work on as a school.

Morgan Shaw: 13:40

So I'm having to relearn this year. This is going to be part of my journey, is, I don't want to be operational, I want to be strategic, or obviously because I want to step up, that's, making sure that I manage myself correctly and learn skill sets to, I guess, maybe outsource some things and build other people's capacities around me. So I'm not, I guess, carrying everything, because I actually don't need to carry everything, and I know that I have some amazing people in my team that are so excited to help me on our journey and I just I can't wait to empower them by giving them some responsibility, and they want responsibility and a little bit more, so they're ready to step up on their journey to it's a team effort and it's going to be very, very different.

Jenny Cole: 14:19

I know, because you told me that you got some feedback from someone outside your current school, that perhaps you should sit at your desk a bit longer and not be in classrooms so much, and after you know a career where you've been walking around seeing coaching working shoulder to shoulder, that didn't sit very well. What were your thoughts about that? And given what you just said about empowering others, have you thought about giving away some of that role to others on your team? What are your thoughts around that feedback about you should be in your office more?

Morgan Shaw: 14:49

Yeah. So I find that hard because I'm like most people, I'm self diagnosed ADHD, so I have to move. I also miss like I'm there for the kids and there for the teachers. I'm there to be a part of our community and to make our community better. So I found that quite hard, hitting that feedback of sitting behind your desk, because I feel when you are faced in a space, when you have a message to deliver on, sometimes when it's a hard message, it's more accepted if you're visible and when you're a visible leader, not a visible leader and you give a message, it can be misconstrued, it can be all different things.

Morgan Shaw: 15:23

So it hit me hard and maybe once again question my leadership style, because obviously I'm still very green in leadership. I base my leadership of looking at amazing people I've worked under for alongside and what aspects I loved about working with them and obviously being a principal is a next. There is a lot of paperwork and there is a lot of, like you know, time behind a closed door because you have to, but they were still all visible and that's the one thing I reflected upon this person who was a very successful person there in space, but I thought that's okay, that's your leadership style. That's not how I want to lead, and if that means I go home and I have to do things at home or I have to work later, that's commitment I personally want to make. So I'm going to continue doing that because I know that if I see my boss putting in 120% and being visible later, that inspires me.

Morgan Shaw: 16:11

So I just think, well, what inspired me about? So? Let's try that for a bit. I'll take that feedback on again and go from there. But didn't sit well with me. But I want to try my style still and I will definitely be able to distribute some coaching that we did last year 2023 to this coming year, as we have done some restructures in the school too. So I'm going to have some coaching allies, which will just obviously upskill myself, because they have way more strengths than me in many different areas. But also you'll give us a community to start talking about things and bouncing ideas off, and that'll take a slight load off me. I never want to give up my coaching role, but I've got experts in spaces that I utilize and I'm not disempowered by them knowing more than me.

Jenny Cole: 16:49

I love that. That's examining your values and your integrity and go yep, that was good advice, maybe for someone else, but it doesn't sit well with me because I want to be visible. So that's brilliant. You said you're green to leadership, and the elephant in the room is that you are very young and again, it's something that you and I had in common is that we were very young leaders. How has that been an asset and how is that not?

Morgan Shaw: 17:13

At the start it was really hard because I stepped up from a teaching position to a deputy position in the same school, which I don't not advise. But especially I was think I was 26. That was really hard and you get some hard feedback at the start and you think about like what do you bring to the table? And that question really sat with me and I was like I don't really know. But I think one thing that has helped is sometimes connecting in different environments like especially low social. You find the dynamic and your parents are very different to my current parents, with a little bit older and they've had children later in previous areas. Some people are having children at 15, 16, 17, 18. So they're young. But I just think it's being authentic. Sometimes it doesn't matter your age as well. I've learned like now that I'm 30s, hang on.

Admin: 17:58

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