Jenny: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading. I'm your host, Jenny Cole, my following guest I'm so excited to have on here. I'm not going to introduce her properly in a moment, but welcome, Antonietta Scriva. Lovely to have you here. Thanks, Jenny, we were just laughing that we rarely see each other, even though I have known Antonietta for three, maybe even four years. We talk over the phone or occasionally on Teams or Zoom. I consider her a friend and colleague, but we've never actually met in person and we rarely even talk like this. So it is lovely to see your face. Antonietta is currently our deputy principal of pastoral care in regional Western Australia for a Catholic high school and she's been up there for three years. She took her family up there three years ago and has done a variety of roles in that time. When she's not doing all of that, she has four children and she loves the gym and historical novels and baking. And I was about to say I don't know where she finds the time, except that she's written in her notes that she's a 4 am riser. I thought I got up early, antoinette, that's the middle of the night. Can you talk people through what your leadership journey has been, because I've kind of followed you. You're a coaching client of mine. You were referred by a friend, but I'm interested for you to tell other people about your journey but, importantly, the kind of insights and things that you've learned, looking back over where you've come from.

Antonietta: 2:32

Yeah, sure, Jen, I guess my journey's been a little bit different. I started out in education really straight from high school, went into my education degree I actually did a year of communications, funnily enough and then decided that education was where I wanted to be and so straight out from uni straight into a school, worked in the primary setting and worked for about six years and kind of got the encouragement in that first school that I was at to pursue something in, I guess what you'd consider in primary middle management had a wonderful principal who, when I think back about it now, with all the work that I've done in the teams I mean now around personal growth plans and growth coaching and things like that, was really really onto talking with people and understanding where they wanted to go and what they wanted to do. So it gave me the opportunity to take on a curriculum coordinator role, which was probably, I guess, the very first start of my leadership journey. When I think about it, I'd never been in any kind of formal role other than the classroom teacher until then and I was sort of six years in, so still pretty green. But he sort of saw in me that I was hoping to move into some kind of leadership perspective and I think I always had it in the back of my head. I'll be honest with you, because I'd always planned to go back to uni and do further study. So that was really great. But I only did that for a couple of years and then I decided to leave education, and you know how the mantra that says you always end up where you're meant to be. Yeah, I ended up working in the communications branch at the Water Corporation in the education area. So I'm sitting in there working with all of these people that had done communications degrees. Funnily enough, a lot of them came from education and it took me back to that first year at uni where I'd studied that for a year and thought, well, isn't this funny that I'm now sitting in here with all the experience I've had in the schools and all those abilities I've got to be working in this comms area and I love that. I worked there for a few years. That was a time in my life where I stopped to get married and have kids. So I actually left the Water Corp on maternity leave and that was my first role there, that I was working completely with adults, so I didn't have anything to do with children. It was all curriculum development, pd and staffing schools. So that kind of came to an end and I made the decision that I didn't want to go back to work. Funnily enough, just you know, as a mum I wanted to stay home. So I stayed home for five years. It's a long time right. Yeah, for someone like you who's so easily bored yeah. And it's really important to mention because I think we forget about that time as women. And I think we forget about that time as women who are in leadership roles, because it cuts out a big chunk of where we are in the workforce. And I will be honest and say that when I entered the workforce and I'll talk about that journey, coming back into the school system itself I was in such a rush, like I was in such a rush, thinking I want to do this, I want to do that, I need to work towards that position and I know now reflection that's not what it's about, and I'm glad that I had some really good coaching conversations with people that made me realise you just need to stop and enjoy the experience and where you end up is where you end up and where you're meant to be is where you're meant to be. So, yeah, stayed home with the kids for five years and then went back to uni first, before going back to work, went back to do my masters. I'd actually planned my masters in my undergraduate. I knew that in the Catholic system you needed to have some RE units towards your masters if you wanted to study at Notre Dame, which is where I did all my study and so I'd done a few in my undergraduate, which was great, because I went into a leadership and management master's course and loved it because I got to choose the units that I wanted to do and I really enjoyed it and, funnily enough again funny situation. I love Notre Dame University. It's a uni I've done all my study at and through starting my masters I got offered a job to work in the academic enabling centre at the university. So that's the branch of the uni that supports all the students that come in and do six months or to a year worth of study before they go into their degree. So I worked there as a session tutor and lecturer and I coordinated a couple of units and taught you know, once again, sort of in that adult education space taught academic writing and referencing and a few other things. You know, english subjects that were kind of part of this pathways program. So students weren't necessarily going into education, they were going into nursing or other areas, but they started off with us. So it was a really great experience. But through my master's study I kind of got the bug to go back into a school and at this point I was only working part time. I wasn't working full time so I got the bugs. I started looking around, thinking what am I going to do? Because who's going to employ the part time teacher that's been out of the teaching classroom for a very long time at that point and I ended up applying for a position at a school in Perth in a middle management role in the secondary college. So I didn't go back to primary, ended up going back to secondary. So I started primary, left the system, went into uni, went into secondary. Who's this primary teacher coming into secondary that she knows what she's doing? But there's a lot of primary teachers in secondary and the position at the time was running a curriculum area and I remember walking out of that interview once again, you always end up where you're meant to be walking out of that interview and learning a bit about the school and thinking, oh, if I don't get this role, I'm going to miss out on something special here. This is something. This is a really special role and it was a new curriculum role vocational education and training which I'd had no experience in and a lot of innovation was required. So when I was successful in getting it, I was really happy because I felt like it was something I was really capable of doing and I loved that. So I stayed there for a bit of time and then moved into a head of year role at the same school, which I thoroughly enjoyed At that time. I'll be honest, I kind of had this thing that that was a sideways move about our leadership journey and we think am I doing the right thing? Am I going in the right direction? I thought that was a sideways move. It's not a sideways move at all. I know that now it was the best experience doing that head of year role. I only ended up doing it for a year because life brought us to Broome, but such a great experience doing that role and having that depth of middle management experience in a different role in the school and in a more of a pastoral role in the Catholic system and then made it to Broome. So I didn't come here for my work. I came here for my husband's work and I was originally coming here to teach for six months and a few things shifted in the staffing at the school that I came to and I was offered another middle management position which was in a completely different area, in the learning support students with disability area and I accepted that. I thought, okay, I can do that. I've had a couple of roles, I can do that. I know what I'm doing in this space. I've had a lot to do with that in the previous role that I was in, came to Broome in a regional community in a new middle management role and then a year after that I decided to go back to primary and accepted an assistant principal role in primary, stayed in that role for a couple of years and now I'm back on secondary in the deputy role. So a lot of movement in the last three to four years, Jenny, like a lot, but a lot of great experience and a lot of leadership experience that I've had in a diverse area of the school and the different contexts of the school primary and secondary which I'm really lucky to actually have moving forward.

Jenny: 9:41

You are not shy of accepting a challenge. What that says to me is people have said you know, here's this or this is available. Oh yeah, I can do that. Your leadership journey doesn't sound like it's completely accidental, but it is intentional to say yes to things if you think you can do them. Does that sound right?

Antonietta: 10:00

Yeah, I think so. I think also it's about putting yourself. At some point there would have been a decision I made to go okay, this is an unknown space, but something feels right. I'll be honest that the more I've become connected with myself and trusting myself, what's been really important to me is being able to actually stop and think and use that intuition that's guiding me to go. Yes, I need to apply for that position because there is that element that I made the choice. You know, I made the choice to apply and I think it's really hard when positions come up and they're competitive, but also I think it's really hard, like you get a lot of noise from outside. So one thing I have learned over the years is that you really just need to connect with yourself and think. If it feels right and the last few roles that I have been successful in have felt really good and before I've even gone in for an interview, it's felt right for me then I've put myself forward to go for it. Yeah, so you do have to say yes. You have to be able to say yes and also not be afraid that it's going to be a big challenge, because if I talk about going back into the primary after not having been in there, since 2006 was the last year I was in primary, or 2005,. What I needed to do and what I think was really my mindset going in there was that the context is going to be different. Be prepared that it's going to be different. Be prepared that perhaps an element of that that's going to do you in some way, whether it's your knowledge, whether it's your you know relationships. Whatever it is, don't take that personal. Go back to the beginning and start again and then, once you get the context sorted like I'm someone who catches up quickly and it didn't take me long and you know what. I was really honest when I went into that primary context again with my team and I looked to them as being the experts. They were the experts in the curriculum, remembering that I'd been at university and trained in a completely different curriculum that was outcomes based education when I was there. So you kind of never lose your skills and your knowledge of what you need to be doing in a classroom, but I have a lot of learning to do. So I look to them as being my experts and the team being the one that was going to help guide me, and I think that helped me in the beginning was going hey, you don't know everything, the context is different. Be prepared, that's going to challenge you, but you're a quick learner. You work it out and look to the people that are there. That are the experts that can help you.

Jenny: 12:21

There's a couple of things that you said that I want to kind of pick up on. Firstly, I love the sort of trust, your intuition, but I know over time and it's something that I've watched is, when you're in that head of year role and you thought it was a sideways move you were seeking advice from everybody. You're asking your principal and your friends and your network and me and everybody, and now it feels like there's a couple of key people that you might run it past but you trust yourself a bit more. Would that be right?

Antonietta: 12:50

Yeah, that's definitely right. I think there's a lot of white noise. When I was in that space and this was the bit I was referring to about wanting to be in a rush someone had said to me and I can't actually remember it was that someone had said to me you know, when this big push with women in leadership and stuff, and someone had mentioned that you got to move quick because you're a woman and you've lost years and you've been out of the workplace. So I actually believe that for a certain amount of time I thought my kids are getting bigger. Now I'm back in the workforce, I've gone full time, I need to be pushing myself for, you know, a deputy role if I want to be a leader in a school. I didn't stop to realize at the time and I think when you're not sure of yourself, you know this is why you seek and you listen to other people. I wasn't sure of the fact that it's actually the experience that makes the biggest difference and the title of the role, the position that you're in, actually is not the important factor. But in saying that, I'm not saying I wouldn't say to people don't go and speak to other people, because there are some conversations I had at that time with many different people. That probably set my mindset and set me in the right frame to pursue, to reflect, to become more confident in who I am now as a leader and in the decisions I'm making. So I wouldn't say, don't do that, but I think you know when you don't need it anymore.

Jenny: 14:03

Yes, yes yeah, it's pulling yourself away from relying on other people's opinions and relying on your gut and trusting in what you know and trusting in your experience and, as you say, I'm a quick learner. I can find out. That was the other thing that I wanted to comment on is that you said, while you didn't know the context as well as you needed to, you relied on others, and there's a vulnerability and saying I don't know, it's up to you, but one of the things that's always impressed me about you is your capacity and your passion for building and growing others. Do you want to talk to me about how you do that in your current role or in your just previous role?

Antonietta: 14:45

Yeah, I think the key to developing other people first and foremost is definitely around relationship, and I think what I really try to do and I'm talking about that, the people that are alongside me and that's a key word alongside you know, someone said to me at the end of last year, you're my boss next year. And I was like no, I'm not your boss, like no, we're a team, we work together. But those relationships are so important and just getting to know your team, getting to know each person, because some people in your school environment, in your work environment, doesn't matter where you are Well, with people that are just happy to get along and do their job really well, and that's where they want to be. They want to be there and it's important to know that. And then there's some people that you get that impression straight away. They will tell you they want to be somewhere else at some point. There's more for them, they can contribute more, they can do more, they can be more, they can give more than where they currently are and they've got the aspirations for it. So, having those really open conversations around that, and one of the things that has been really important for me is really sitting down and doing growth plans with my staff, because the growth plans open up that conversation so organically and you set some really achievable goals, whether it's around self-development, whether it's around looking for opportunities or whether it's about doing what they do. I always say to people choose something small and start where you are now and what can you do. That's going to build your skill, set up to then develop yourself more, to be ready for something else. But I think one of my kind of mantras is that as a team you're stronger when you're together, but you also need to step back when you're in leadership and you remove yourself from that doing. And it's about putting your team first, letting your team do what needs to be done, letting them come to the decision making. So everything for me goes on an agenda. I talk about everything with my team Because if I'm going to be working and overseeing and leading heads of houses or I'm going to be overseeing and leading coordinators on a primary or other leaders in the school and everyone is a leader in a school they need to tell me where they want to go and how they want to move forward. I don't want to make the decisions on my own. It's definitely a team effort and then it's about allowing them and encouraging them to have the opportunity to be able to lead, and that then develops them and gives them capabilities. So a funny story is one of the staff members that I was working really closely with when I first met her was a teacher in a classroom and so through that she was part of my team. We worked really closely together and I obviously provide a lot of positive encouragement, a lot of opportunities for them to take on and follow through skills on their own, and I stepped back and I support and the second year of me working with her, she then went into coordinating a little area at the school and she said if I didn't feel so confident, I wouldn't have put myself forward. So building her up was really important, right. And then when she was a year in the role, there were things that popped up. So there were things like presentations at staff meetings. Well, you're doing that because you're leading this, this is your, this is your. There was a PD where they asked me to deliver. Well, I'm not going to deliver, I'll get her to come and deliver because she's running it, she's leading it. So you know putting people forward. And then you know, two years now. You know, further down the track, she's now in another leadership role which is a bigger role than before and feels really confident, you know. Doesn't even think twice about being nervous when she's presenting or anything like that anymore. So I think it is about you know, when you go into those leadership roles, taking that step back and go. What does my team need to be doing here? How do I develop and support my team to move forward?

Jenny: 18:24

It's not about you at all, so yeah, because you're right, you can't be doing all the doing. That's what wears you out, whereas if you can encourage and empower people to do it themselves, even if they don't have a title, you know, encourage them to present PL or to lead that particular project, it just takes the weight off you.

Antonietta: 18:44

Yeah, and one of the things when you're working with your teams as well is that sometimes you've got to give your team the sense of and the knowledge that they actually are part of every decision and are part of moving forward with you in the school environment. So you need to let them. I always say to them, I give you permission to come forward and always challenge so that they feel like you know they've got that control and then their confidence grows because they feel good if they can come to you and say, hey, I don't quite feel like that's right. Can we do this a little bit different? Or I'd like to do it this way. And if you give them that ability to see that, yeah, actually that's a great idea. That's what you should be doing. It's just about building that confidence. That's where, for me, it always comes back to relationships. If you can build your team up and make them feel comfortable and safe, you're going to see some opportunities there to really develop people and help people grow because they trust you.

Jenny: 19:35

And one of the things that I know sits underneath all of this for you and it probably comes from that comms background is that really strong need for clear communication channels and ways of working. Do you want to talk us through that and how you use communication to build strong teams?

Antonietta: 19:53

Yeah, I think communication is really important. I always say 90% of problems of bad communication. One of the things that I really like to do and I do this at small meetings, big meetings, whatever is I'm always really clear about what information I'm always communicating. So if it's something that we're deciding together, if it's something that has already been decided because that happens sometimes or it's something that we need to work on, so I think being clear with your words and being really clear with your message delivery is really important. From a personal perspective, I think it's important to do that. I think you have to have a bank and this is something I've actually learned a lot with you, jen is you've got to have a bank of questions, because remembering that you're not someone who is giving advice or someone who needs to get the information out of someone else, it's about them coming to the conclusion themselves. I try to revisit and listen really intently and then think well, what do I need to ask here? What more can I learn from this person sitting in front of me? To really get to what they need from me, to honor what they need from me, you know, to get to where they need to be. But I think when you're running your teams, what I've found has worked really effective for me in communication is making sure that you're meeting things. If it's a meeting, that it's limited and so you can always go back and check and reflect and make sure that you take the things off everyone's shared and it's all recorded, especially when you're running a specific team that is in charge of leading a part of the school. And nowadays as well, you know, one of the biggest things I use in my communication is teams is just so important, I feel, for really building that communication and also having a space that you can become a collaborative team online, and that's a tool that I've kind of used for a very long time now, which really does help in bringing your team together in a way and being in that space where you've got everything there and people know where to find things and you can have your little chats on there and things like that. But yeah, I think the communication in particular, you need to make sure, first of all, most important, is looking personally at what you're doing. Are you listening, are you hearing what these people are saying, and then giving lots of opportunities for discussion. Giving lots of opportunities for conversation around and it's not just the formal conversations. There's times you're encountering each other throughout the school day or where you can actually hear what people are saying and what they have to say. I think having that once again, coming back to that relationship and having that ability to be able to be honest and be able to talk and communicate, is really, really important, and I think one of the things that I do at the beginning of the year is make sure that my team knows that I'm a communicator. I might overcommunicate. I'm going to be explicit, I'm going to be consistent. We need to work as a team, but I want you to talk to me too. We've all been in situations where we've worked for bosses and we don't feel we can go in and have a conversation. So that's really tricky when you're feeling like that. And then if you're an effective listener, if you're someone who does listen and listens well, that's going to make that person feel safe and interact with you, and you've got to, I think you've got to find ways to keep your team close and really look after them. One of the things that I do that has really supported me in the last four to five years is making sure I schedule a 10 to 15 minute session every week or fortnight. However, it works out with timetabling et cetera to just have an informal walk and talk or a meeting with a teacher or a middle manager. So it becomes oh, we have our formal meetings, but that's the time where I go. How's things going? How's you know, conversation is great. You end up hearing about family things we end up hearing about, but then you also deviate back to work. But it's not recorded, it's just an open conversation and that really does help me get to know my team but also kind of see the things that might be going on that they might not want to talk about in front of other people and be able to workshop with them and communicate with them one at a one.

Jenny: 23:37

That's such fabulous advice and I'm sure that by having those informal check-ins on a more personal level, by the time you get to their performance management, their growth plans, people are really used to talking to you and this is just kind of formalizing it, rather than I'm sitting in Ants office and I'm not sure what she wants from me.

Antonietta: 23:58

Yes, yeah. And even Jenny, when I'm doing those growth plans, like sometimes, I'll do them outside on a bench under the tree. I think you've got to pick your environments as well, because people do relax and respond differently, and I think that's important to note because we have to remember that, at the end of the day, we're all humans, right, we've got to tap into that vulnerability as a human sometimes and not forget that. So sometimes, yeah, I'll do them outside, under a tree, sitting on a bench, to make someone feel more comfortable.

Jenny: 24:27

And because I know about how well you use Microsoft Teams, all of those processes that you put in the OneNote and all of the induction packages and all of the meetings that you have, where everyone knows where they are and can access that information at any time, and all of those processes. It's all there and it allows you to get on with having day-to-day conversations with people about what it's like to be human, but also their teaching and learning and whatever is important, because it's underpinned by really strong processes and allows you to have those conversations. Before we wrap up, I know that this year, in your role, you're going to be launching a whole school wellbeing and pastoral care framework. That sounds really exciting. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Antonietta: 25:13

Yeah, so last year I actually funnily enough I hope you think it's quite funny to me, isn't it? When you're doing a podcast, you realise what you say a lot more I actually participated in a professional certificate of wellbeing at Notre Dame University and obviously at the time I didn't realise I'd be moving into this role. Whether I'm on primary or secondary in the current school armad, I'm sitting on the college leadership team and I've always got that strategic lens. It's just how my brain thinks. So I participated in this professional certificate and it was a really great insight for me into doing a bit more further learning and data collection around wellbeing and wellbeing at our school, what that looks like, what we need, where we're heading. And I think the biggest thing that I took from it and I was only actually reflecting about this yesterday because we're coming up to hopefully launching this framework to our staff in a few weeks' time when we come back was that the wellbeing within a school needs to be intentional so for it to be effective, for it to be something that a child is entering into a school, whether they're coming in from their early years or they're coming in halfway or they come into a secondary college. It's not aligned with the primary, however, it is that the wellbeing is not just visible, but it's intentional first, and it's intentional in how we approach each student at the time they're in the school, in the year level that they're in the school, and intentional in how our teachers address wellbeing. So, after doing a bit of data collection, I actually put an action plan together where I knew we had to get to this framework this pastoral care wellbeing framework to make sure that our wellbeing is intentional at the school was going to come to fruition. I worked really closely with doing it through the wellbeing committee. So last year we employed a director of wellbeing and we also set up a wellbeing committee and I was happy to take that on under my portfolio and we worked really closely with the teachers and we worked on this framework together and we made decisions about it. We changed things. They presented it to leadership. So even though I was sitting on leadership, leadership weren't aware about it. We've got the team, the teachers, to present it to leadership and amongst all that, you've got your wellbeing surveys going on, you're communicating, upskilling your staff, and so this year we'll launch it. So what it will basically be is the framework for how our wellbeing is intentionally being delivered across our college from K to 12, so that a child that enters the school at Kindie and then exits at year 12, has this journey of pastoral care and wellbeing. But also it doesn't matter where you enter, because you'll enter in that space that the framework adheres to, where we see this, children are at their developmental and what happens in your school year in that particular time and it's reoccurring. So the themes that sit within this framework occur over two year groups, so that you have one primary, one secondary. So if you are looking at a K to 12 journey, you enter that well-being, that intentional well-being, twice in your journey to school. And it also is bigger picture than that too, because it connects the staff to what they're doing in their classrooms, in their learning areas. And then it also is going to connect the primary, secondary together in the fact that we do do it crossover and the year levels. But the biggest thing is that the framework is not something that teachers have to do anything with straight away. What we'll do with this framework is when we launch the visual representation of it is we'll start mapping out and this is the job that the Well-Being Committee will do we'll start mapping out what we currently do for our well-being in our school and where that fits into the framework, and then the framework becomes the guiding, overarching framework for when we are looking at what initiatives that we're bringing in, or for teachers to keep in the back of the mind. This is what the intentional well-being focus is for these students at this point in their journey at the school. So how do I bring that into my sphere of influence? Which might be the classroom? Which might be the learning area in the secondary? The head of learning area might consider how that's going to look through a series of classes. The next step for me actually Jenny is now that I've gone through the action plan of it. coming together as a framework and working with the staff is about how, over the next two years, it's going to be implemented and who are the well-being champions that will pick some things up and work with things, and who are the other people that need to be consulted to make sure that, all of a sudden, in a two years, three years time and we review it constantly we have a framework that is overarching and shows that journey of well-being for the students. It's pretty exciting. It's really exciting, couldn't really have done it without the support of our system, which it really put a massive focus on well-being and has a lot of research, that they've provided a lot of frameworks that they've given us to kind of work from, which is really wonderful, but also that extended learning really helped, but also the team of people that I'm working with at the school that really believe that the well-being is so important. The evidence is showing us, the data shows us that here, especially in a regional community, this has to be intentional. This has to be what we do intentionally. It can't just be oh, we're looking after students. No, how are we intentionally looking after students? And we've got some big ideas. You know we want to extend out to do a framework for staff too, which is something that our director wants to take on. So it's opened a lot of conversation and discussion, which is really really good, really great and it will also lead into staff having a look at themselves and potentially moving into exploring our own character, strengths, how they align with the values of our school. The whole framework is underpinned by our school values and then being able to have our staff really, alongside this framework, know that they also need the skills and the language and the abilities to be upskilled to deliver well-being that is intentional.

Jenny: 30:59

What I love about that is that it is one strategic, two, not rushed, and three shows a real understanding of a change management process, which is that you know, getting the keen people on board, mapping it out, because sometimes the really keen people write all this stuff and go here you go and everyone else goes. I don't know how I fit that in and it seems like everything's aligned. It's aligned with the system, with the school, but also there's a direct line down to a child. You know, when this child arrives at this school, this is how we're going to work with them. How exciting that sounds fantastic.

Antonietta: 31:36

It is exciting, very exciting.

Jenny: 31:38

Just as we finish, do you have any final pieces of advice that either you've been given or that you would give middle leaders as they are starting or beginning their journey?

Antonietta: 31:50

I think probably the biggest advice, if I think about the learning for me over the past three to four years, is in yourself as a leader. You're so much stronger when you're coming from that centred place. I feel that I'm at a point now where I'm not at the will of other people. You know, I'm confident in myself and trusting my intuition. I think a certain amount of being able to be that centred and be stronger, like where you're standing and where you're coming from, is being able to lean in and not out. I think we think sometimes as leaders, we have to remove ourselves, and I think you've got to lean in and really accept that dual process you with another person, you with the team and be really in touch with yourself and those inside conversations that you have. Because the ideal for me, I think, is that anything can be said if it's done with love, dignity and respect, and you can still be tough by being direct, but still have empathy and remain close with someone. You know what I mean and do it in a way that is nurturing and supportive. And I think it's just about once again coming back to being centred and putting some time into yourself. I think, jenny, one of the things that I will say. That has really helped me is being alongside you and having you coach me and listening to things and being able to workshop things with you and investing in myself, and I'm glad that the person that referred me on to you did so, because I think I've learned a lot from that. You were the one that explained to me about how you have your different people. You have your mentor. Sponsoring coach, yeah, and I think it's so important to have a coach because you can't always get that from the other spaces. So I think investing in yourself is really important. One of the things that I have on my desk at work, like the first thing, is slow down. I'm always reminding myself to slow down. We can laugh about that. I really appreciate that. You said that that well-being process was slow. I was like brilliant, that was my aim. But you know I can't remember now exactly what the phrase is. But you know no one's going to do it. No one's going to get there. You've got to put yourself out there and do it. Yeah, I think you have to give yourself opportunities to grow. If you're not growing Like my kids on the holidays are laughing. You know we go down to Perth and all the books that I bring back that are not like interesting books to them you know it's textbooks. You know me learn, but you've got to invest in yourself. So I think that's really important too.

Jenny: 34:07

Antonietta, as always, I could talk to you forever, but we're going to stop now. If people are listening to this and want to connect with Ant, I'm going to put her LinkedIn details in the show notes. If you love this podcast episode and you want to listen to some more, please follow and subscribe, and even give us a good review, and I'll pass it on to Antonietta. Thank you so much and I will see you next time.

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