Making Decisions to Change Roles and Prioritise Wellbeing with Karen Stuart

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello there and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm Jenny, and I'm really thrilled to have with me today the wonderful Karen Stuart. Welcome, Karen. Hi, Jenny, I'm so thrilled to have you here because Karen's the Head of English at a metropolitan high school in Western Australia. When she's not working, she tells me that she is trying to keep the peace at home between her two teenage daughters. She's reading trashy romancey novels. I don't believe that for a second, because I know that you're a big reader, but you know we've all got to have some downtime sometimes, and what I really loved in your bio that you sent me was that you're trying not to let your gym membership become a charitable donation, and I think we can all agree with that. What I want to talk to you about is the next bit, which is you said you're interested in aviation and you've taken up flying lessons. How brave of you. How long have you been doing that?

Karen Stuart: 2:03

So I got a gift voucher for my 40th birthday last year for a trial flight and I used to have a terrible fear of flying and I think I just kind of got to the point where I thought I'm just going to give it a go and just you know, see how how it pans out. It was kind of terrifying but also great at the same time. So very early in my stages of learning how to fly a tiny little plane, but yeah, it's just something, I guess, for myself that's very different and out of the ordinary from what I would normally do. So just kind of pushing myself out of my comfort zone a bit really.

Jenny Cole: 2:42

Yes, and we've had lots of conversations over the past past and there's lots of times that you've pushed yourself out of your comfort zone, and we'll talk about some of those as we go through today. Do you want to just give us a little bit of a snapshot about your career, from the beginning until now?

Karen Stuart: 3:01

Yes, so sure. I actually started out not really wanting to be a teacher at all. So I remember being in my final year of high school and having a place to go and study journalism and a place to study English and my teacher, in her wisdom, said to me don't ever be a teacher. So I went off and studied journalism for a year and I really loved it, because I just love talking to people and sharing stories and that kind of stuff. But I kind of changed tack and started studying English because, again, that was my love and I kind of fell into studying teaching to start with, um, so that was kind of how I got to that point. And then after that I taught in Scotland. So I trained in Scotland. That's where I'm from originally. I can tell by my accent. I'm not from here. So I taught there as a classroom teacher in English for about six years, then decided that it might be a good idea to take my then one-year-old and three-year-old to the other side of the world, to Perth, where I've never been before. So I moved over here in 2012.

Karen Stuart: 4:10

I did a year working for not-for-profit on an alternative education program for students at risk, which was fantastic, but I did miss being in the classroom teaching English with them, and that's when I went back to classroom teaching. And then, I guess in terms of leadership, my first step into that was as a year course, so that was about six years ago now. I did that for a few years and I really thought I wanted to go into student services. It's people that work in student services work really hard. It's a very difficult space to work in, but also quite rewarding. At the point where my year co position was finishing up, I then had the opportunity to be an acting head of department in the school that I had been at, and since then I won the position and stayed at that school for another three years, and I've just this year started a head of department position in a new school. So that's pretty much where I'm up to at the moment.

Jenny Cole: 5:06

Yes, and we met when you were transitioning or when you were at the year co and we were talking about you know where to next and should I apply for this role and those sorts of things which, again, I think we'll talk about a little bit later on, is how you made those decisions.

Jenny Cole: 5:23

But, I know one of the things that you are absolutely passionate about in any role that you're in is creating the conditions where teachers can thrive and do their very best. I'm curious to know what are those conditions, what are the things that you're trying to make sure exist and build, and how do you do that? Yeah, what are the conditions that you're trying to build and how have you gone about doing that?

Karen Stuart: 5:49

I think that for me, the most important thing is about building good relationships and collaboration within a team.

Karen Stuart: 5:59

When I first moved into being head of department, I had had some great heads of department before me that had been really good mentors and I I love the way that they worked, and when the opportunity came up to do that, I thought this is something. I was hesitant, I didn't think I had the confidence, but I thought this is something I can do. So the way I guess that I do that is just really getting to know people and knowing where their strengths are and helping them find, you know, also helping them push themselves out of their comfort zone a little bit as well to try and do the best that they can for their students, and so for me, it's all about creating a culture of collaboration, trust and and being compassionate and empathetic with people when they need that as well and the thing that I noticed as you got further into, once you'd won that role and you were settled in it, that you realized that you not only needed to build relationships but there was some processes that needed to be made and set.

Jenny Cole: 6:59

Can you share with us some of the processes that perhaps you put in place, or that you that you tightened up to ensure that your team knew what they were doing and were all on the same page?

Karen Stuart: 7:11

I think the processes that we probably needed to tighten up on at that point was probably boundaries as well. We tended to overshare quite a lot and there's, you know, just making sure that people had the time as well that they needed to do things. So a lot of processes I was looking at is how can we be more efficient with time and make sure that it's managed and valued in a way that's going to be effective. So things like meetings, having them when it's appropriate and making sure that those meetings are run where everybody has a chance to share what they need to share and that everyone has the opportunity to be heard as well. So I guess our meeting processes I tried to tighten up on that a little bit so that everyone had that opportunity. Yeah, that probably was the main one.

Jenny Cole: 8:03

Yeah, and what I heard you say was what I think I'm hearing you say is don't have a meeting if there's nothing to meet about, but if there is, let's have some structured processes and boundaries and agendas around what we're going to talk about.

Karen Stuart: 8:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jenny Cole: 8:21

You've made some really big and brave career moves. Know, even just moving um countries is is huge. And, as I said, when we first met, you were literally just moving out of a teacher year co role into a substantive in fact I think it was acting in the beginning, you know, and it was, it was can I do, can I do this? Then into more sort of substantive leadership roles. When you won that head of learning area, you were hit with a whole lot of challenges, least of which were COVID, teacher shortages and a big building project that stopped halfway through because the builders ran out of money or whatever happened. Lots of challenges. But my question, I think, for you is how do you go about making those decisions about? Is this right for me to stay here? Do I move on? Is this the right job? We've had lots of conversations about? Should I stay or should I go?

Jenny Cole: 9:25

I'd like the people that are listening today. What are some of the thought patterns in your head? How do you make those decisions?

Karen Stuart: 9:33

well for me. It was probably a lot of external factors that kind of pushed me to that decision, and sometimes life gets in the way as well. So, um, at the time where I had kind of been thinking about, is this the somewhere that I want to stay for longer? And I really loved the school that I was in. I had been there for nearly 10 years and I worked with some great people and there was lots of positives, there were lots of challenges, and I guess I was starting to feel a little bit stretched rather than challenged and I kind of felt like I need to maybe look for some more growth. I felt like I kind of had a depth of knowledge and understanding about where I was, but I just didn't feel that I had was growing and broadening that. So I had also, just recently we um had some close family members who'd passed away and I had taken a trip back to the UK for funeral and come back.

Karen Stuart: 10:28

So this, you know, personal things sometimes also kind of make you just look a little bit at your own mortality and think about, okay, as we get one life, we get one opportunity. So those kind of things were in my mind at that time and I was also thinking about well, am I the best person to continue on doing this in this role? And I thought at that point I can, but I think I need more, and it's not really fair to those around me if I stay in a position where I'm maybe not at my best and they're not getting the best of me. So I just needed to have a new challenge and a new start for that.

Jenny Cole: 11:04

And we literally talked about at the time when we bounced around ideas and you had lots more in your head but you were literally prepared to uproot your family and go country, or like you were thinking about big changes, because I think once you've made one big change, it's possibly easier to make others. Where does that confidence come from others? Um, where does that confidence come from, or is it? Is it confidence or is it?

Karen Stuart: 11:34

I'm just running away from this and I'll run as far as I can, probably a bit of both. I think, um, I think one of the things I got to know really, um, I think at that point, when I was making those decisions, I actually took some time off work because I, health-wise, I was in a place where I was making those decisions. I actually took some time off work because, health-wise, I was in a place where I was really quite stressed and all of like you know, I had grief, I had challenges at work and I had all of these things going on. I thought I didn't want to take time off because I'm the kind of person that just keeps going and I thought I can't possibly. I talked to my team about make sure you put yourself first, take time when you need it, and I can't say that and not model it myself.

Karen Stuart: 12:17

So I took a bit of time off, got a personal trainer because the magic membership wasn't just a donation. I started seeing a psychologist and I had all of these. I was did some coaching as well with yourself, and I thought I just needed to get back to who I was and think about what it was that I needed and from that, I guess I revisited my values and what was important to me, and what was important to me was my family and spending time with them. So a lot of the decisions that I then made was about how I could best spend more time with my family, work out my work-life balance a little and just kind of shift my priorities onto that a bit more.

Jenny Cole: 12:49

Yeah, and so you didn't choose to run away. You ended up in a school. My guess is slightly closer to home.

Karen Stuart: 12:59

Yeah, my school now is an eight minute drive away from home and, yeah, so it's definitely brought some time back into my life, which is fantastic.

Jenny Cole: 13:15

And I think we underestimate the impact that a long commute can have. I mean, there's some benefits you can listen to some podcasts and you can ring some girlfriends and you can have some thinking time but it also really eats into your day, particularly when you've got kids who need you to be around. Yeah, what are you enjoying most about your current role?

Karen Stuart: 13:34

I think what has been great walking into a new school is, um, being the new person again and having to to rethink what your place is somewhere. So when I had previously been in an acting position, I knew all of my colleagues, I knew a lot of the processes, I knew the school, had a really clear idea of what it was I was working with. But going into a new place in a position and in a leadership position, there's an, there's opportunity there to to try and you know, kind of reset and reflect and think about um, you know, getting to know new people and just having a different way of working perhaps what have you done differently or what have you been able to do coming in as the new person, rather than someone who knew everybody?

Jenny Cole: 14:19

what's that allowed you to do?

Karen Stuart: 14:20

um, I think it's just allowed me to have a different perspective and perhaps um trying to have to find ways to get to know people, um again and um, and where people's strengths are, and I've just I guess I've just taken the time really to um do that and there's new processes that are the school that I've moved to has just finished to build and so we've just moved offices as well again um, which is great and it's know. I think it just creates a lovely opportunity for, you know, doing things a little bit differently.

Jenny Cole: 14:55

What would you say? Your leadership strengths are, and the flip side of that is where do you see that you have limitations? Because we all have limitations.

Karen Stuart: 15:04

Yeah, and I actually in my new school, I just did my desk profile our whole leadership teams, which is something I really wish I had had the opportunity to do before I even started, and and because I think the best thing you can get to know is yourself, and that's where a lot of everything comes from, that.

Karen Stuart: 15:22

So, understanding where my strengths are and I'm an S which is very steady, stability it's in how you know that's my preference for working is a calm environment, is to have, um, you know, not a very dominant person.

Karen Stuart: 15:39

I tend to be much more open and I do a lot of listening, and I guess that sometimes you know that element of support that comes with. That is it's a strength, but it can also be to your own detriment, and I think that's what I've learned about myself from just doing, you know, that questionnaire. You think, oh, it's just a few questions, but the actual what it comes back with is just this whole profile of, oh, that's, that's why that conversation goes so well with that person, because you have a different style or way of approaching things. So, um, learning that maybe I need to be a little bit more assertive in some things or speak up a bit more um and not be so contemplative when I need you know is is something that I guess I learned about myself and how I lead yeah, and, and what I love about that is your strength can be your weakness.

Jenny Cole: 16:28

So your strength about building relationships and harmony and make you know, making sure things are supported and steady, sometimes you need to be something else or do something else, be more decisive, or or what have you? Which is why we've um, we all struggle with having those challenging conversations, but you had a lot to have at one point. Did you ever get better at them once you'd had a couple?

Karen Stuart: 16:56

Yeah, I think so I actually got there's a book called Crucial Conversations, which is one that I use, and I like to think about things quite a lot before I take action, and that's why those conversations are difficult for me, because I can't. I'd sit there and go. What are they if I say this? What are they going to say back? How am I going to deal with that?

Karen Stuart: 17:14

Because I really just shy away from conflict and and I think when you kind of reframe it as it's not about conflict, it's just about having a conversation, about trying to find the best outcome for everyone, and you kind of just have to get over that part of yourself a little bit and just find, you know, what are we working towards? What's the best outcome? So I guess reframing it in my own mind was probably the way that those conversations get a bit easier. And so even when a conversation, you can see it's high stakes for someone else, just you know how you respond rather than how you react is something that I kind of really started to think about and that made it a bit easier.

Jenny Cole: 17:51

And do you think it will be easier with new staff who perhaps you don't have all of that history with and that you might be worried about upsetting? Oh, definitely.

Karen Stuart: 18:02

I think you have a blank slate there, so you don't bring any of your preconceived understanding ideas about the people that you work with. So you kind of aren't thinking about, oh well, I know that this is how they're going to react if I say this, or I know that this is not going to be something they're going to agree with or they're going to be happy about, and you know that is taken away. You do have that understanding of how someone's going to respond. It's just having a bit of a plan or having some tools or skills that you've got there to be able to deal with. That is something that I've kind of been building on and that's made it a bit of a better outcome, I guess.

Jenny Cole: 18:42

So Crucial Conversations is a fabulous book. Patterson and Grenny, it's a really super book. So if anybody's interested, that it's full of tools that you can use, because having difficult conversations is a skill that you can learn, and particularly as an S a disc S, you're going to run like the hill, you know, run away from conflict at all opportunities, and so you do need tools and we don't come with them ready made. One of the challenges that we've talked about and that you've talked about before is the challenge of being a middle leader, where it's your job to support and advocate for your team and what your team needs and what your team is teaching and doing, but also being a member of the senior leadership team, where you've got to build relationships with them and also, perhaps you know, toe the party line. It's a really tricky space to be in. Do you want to talk about any tips you've got or your experiences? Share it with those people who are listening?

Karen Stuart: 19:46

One of the things that I noticed quite a lot is how teachers and how senior leaders kind of talk about each other. There's you, you're the bridge between that. So I kind of think it's my job to make sure that not only are we, you know, kind of all moving in the same direction, but we're all understanding what other each other are trying to do. So and I think it's sometimes I'll hear teachers say, oh, you know, exec, oh they're, they're doing this or they're doing that. And I'll be like, well, who, who is they? And bring it back to the person, because that's ultimately, the decision lies with someone that's being made, and it's much easier for us to be opposed to something when there's this kind of faceless them.

Karen Stuart: 20:27

And it's the same with when anxiety, if they're talking about teachers oh, you know, we want teachers to do this it's like, well, who's going to do that? Where's the time going to come from for this to happen? So I guess it's just about making sure that you understand the challenges for for everyone, and you know we're actually all kind of in it together, we're all on the same team. So just bring it, you know, kind of removing those divides and just bringing it back to. You know we've got a common goal and what. We've got a shared purpose, and that's to do the best for the students that we have in front of us. So it's not about, um, what's you know, us and them, it's about us all in it together yeah, I really like that.

Jenny Cole: 21:04

It's the, it's the notion of othering you. You know, the minute that we other somebody they did this or the year tens and we put people in a group, then we see them as a group and that they're all the same. But, when we give them a name. So who the deputy Okay, I know who that is or that group of kids? It's personal, then, and we make much better decisions if we're thinking about a person rather than a, than a group yeah, exactly but hard for the middle leader.

Jenny Cole: 21:35

How do you get your voice heard on a senior leadership team where everybody well, when you're with equals and you know the other heads of learning areas and and people your level, but also senior leaders. Any tips for how you get your voice heard?

Karen Stuart: 21:54

I think you just have to actually ask with clarity what it is that you need or what it is that you want from that person to be able to do your job well, so that, as you said earlier, like my biggest kind of passion is making sure that the teachers in the classroom have everything that they need in the conditions, so I just bring it always bring it back to that when it comes to sometimes we have to make tricky decisions or fiscal decisions.

Karen Stuart: 22:19

It's about funding or it's about you know where's you know time. A lot of the, the contentions, um, there, um, when it comes to senior leadership, sometimes I think I've probably been quite hesitant just to ask exactly what it is that I need, and I think you just have to be really clear about doing that um, because a lot of the time where you're thinking, oh, I wish someone would maybe do this a bit differently, they're not going to know if you don't ask. And sometimes we're scared to well, maybe not scared, but hesitant to go and knock on someone's door and ask. Ask for what we need, because we know everyone's busy and I think it's, if it's important. You have to just make sure that you find the ways to have those conversations.

Jenny Cole: 23:08

And you touched on earlier, taking some leave because you felt stretched. Is there a connection there with boundaries and asking for what you need? Are you happy to share a bit more about that wellbeing journey?

Karen Stuart: 23:22

Yeah, and so at that time, I mean, I had actually had some health things. I was getting some chest pains and my blood pressure and cholesterol is a bit high and I'm, you know, not that old. So I kind of thought this is really kind of, you know, mentally I'm quite a strong person, I can deal with quite a lot, I think you know. And then, but at the same time, if you don't actually, if you internalize that and you don't kind of find a way of um an outlet or find someone to talk to about it, or um do or take some different action, then you can kind of end up with just all of this kind of stress building up. And I was, you know, it was coming out in my health.

Karen Stuart: 24:02

I guess the body kind of knows so, um, so that having that time off, um, I guess that um really just helped me reframe where I was at that point in time and putting boundaries, and after that became a lot easier because I thought this isn't a point that I ever want to get to again, um, and just knowing I did some work, but um on, you know, just learning a little bit about recognizing in yourself when you physically kind of feel something you can kind of, um, tap into your values and thinking what is it that's pushing the buttons here and just having, you know, an understanding of yourself and how, um, how those, what the kind of consequence of not having those boundaries would be. So things like someone's asking oh, can you fill up the photocopier with paper for me? You know I don't mind doing that, but am I the best person to do that at the time? Can you go and speak to IT Because my you know director's on the blink again. So just sometimes it would just be saying I'd love to help you with that right now, but maybe this is the person that you can go and see they might be better to help you with it. Or maybe at the moment I'm dealing with something else. So perhaps in an hour, if you haven't managed to work it out, then I'll come and help with this, and so that's that was within my team, but also just, I guess, with senior leadership as well, being able to kind of say I'm at capacity for this.

Karen Stuart: 25:35

I think there's a tendency to put things back onto the teachers in the classroom. When things you know, they tend to take quite a lot and even as a middle leader, you're still a teacher in a classroom as well, so you're kind of running around doing all of these things. You can't do all the things, yet there has to be a point where you say, no, I have to not write all the relief lessons or deal with all of this. Somebody else is going to have to work that out, because this is what I can do right now and that's my limit.

Jenny Cole: 26:06

I like that. In fact I love that. That's the classic boundaries are, you know, batting back when things aren't necessarily you're not the best person to do them or when you just don't have the time or the capacity. But also the other side is saying no, and you know, and I need something different from the people you know above you. Yeah, I know that in the beginning you thought you'd just take a day or two off and eventually decided to take a chunk of time. How hard was that? To make that decision? That was really hard.

Karen Stuart: 26:40

I actually I've never had that amount of time. I had a month off altogether. I've never had that amount of time off work since I was like my first part-time job was when I was 12. So I've always had something. I've just never stopped.

Karen Stuart: 26:53

I think had a conversation with my doctor and she said you're not replaceable. At home, like if you're at work, you can be replaced, and I think we also have to remember that that when you're in a school it can really absorb who you know, you. It's a strong part of our identity, like working in education and it's great. But you can't let that consume who you are. You're so much more than just you know that.

Karen Stuart: 27:18

So for me, because I've always worked so hard and done so much, that was a difficult decision. But when it comes back to what's important and what's your values and that's my family, it's my time, it's my health then that made it quite simple. You know, it's just, if I continued in this, then nothing's going to change. I was worried about letting down the people that I worked with as well, but then I thought they're, they'll be fine. I knew that they had the capability to work on that, so that wasn't that. I didn't think they could do that because I had absolute trust and faith in the people that were in my team that they could absolutely manage things. And, as a leader, if you can't step out and things aren't running without you, then that's not a good thing either. You know you should be setting it up in a way that it can work without you there. So you know, obviously you still have to be there most of the time, but you should be able to step out and take some time and things don't fall apart.

Jenny Cole: 28:13

And they didn't, and it was fine, and you're better as a result.

Karen Stuart: 28:15

Much better. Yeah, definitely far better.

Jenny Cole: 28:20

You are one of the bravest people that I've ever met. You make very big decisions, albeit slowly and with consideration, but you do make really big decisions, which I think is brilliant. If you had some advice for people stepping into middle leadership for the first time, what would your advice be?

Karen Stuart: 28:40

I think my advice would be definitely learn a bit about leadership before you completely step in. Take some coaching. Do some PD understand what it is you know that that you need to do, for you know knowing who you are and where your strengths are and how you're going to be challenged by that is helpful, but I would absolutely encourage people to do it. I think we've got a shortage of leaders at the moment, um, and that you know. Everybody just needs to take the step and try it, because you're going to learn as you go and I think it's keeping an open mind about you know what you're going to learn, how you're going to improve, and not having a kind of fixed idea of what it is as well, but just learning some skills and have some coaching. Get some tools so that you're prepared for that as well.

Jenny Cole: 29:27

But yeah, just give it a go, yes, yes and and know that you don't know it and that you'll have to learn some of it on the go. I think those aspirants who struggle are those who think they've got it all together or pretend that they do. Being open to new learning is really important.

Karen Stuart: 29:47

The more that I do this, the more I know I don't know and the more questions I have. And that's great, and you never stop learning, and that's the beauty of it as well, is that it's you know.

Jenny Cole: 29:56

It's all about the learning as you go along as well, so you don't need to know everything you can't possibly, where do you get your professional learning, or what's your favourite professional learning, favourite book, podcast, anything that you've read or heard or seen that you really enjoyed.

Karen Stuart: 30:14

I did a little bit of reading on the Third Space by Dr Adam Fraser, which I guess kind of really helped me, particularly when you talk about wellbeing and it's about those transitional moments between what you do, between times to try and, you know, help you continue on. Quite often in school we talk about, oh, we can't wait till the holidays, but in actual fact life doesn't work in ten week terms and for the rest of the world. So so, learning about how to um look after yourself and in between those times, um of things happening as well, like between work and between home, and just that keeps you without you know, um just only looking forward to those holidays, but um also, I listened to the Diary of a CEO podcast, which is with Steve Bartlett, who's a dragon from the Dragon's Den in the UK. He has some fantastic people from lots of life. It's not just about education, um, and just, you know, learning from different stories. That's something that's been really helpful as well.

Karen Stuart: 31:17

And I read. The most recent book I read was the Kristen Ferguson Head and Heart book, which was recommended by you, which was great as well. So those are a few things that I kind of listen to and read at the moment.

Jenny Cole: 31:28

You're the third person literally today to tell me about Steve Bartlett because he's just been in Perth and so I'm heading off to put him on my podcast list. But the Head and Heart of Leadership by Kristen Ferguson You're exactly the kind of leader I have in mind when she talks about head and heart, because I think you need that alignment of both. You know, sometimes more one, sometimes more the other, but it's a super super book too. I was looking back through our notes from our coaching conversations prior to this and I wrote down something that you'd said and I have no idea what it was in reference to, but I just love the term where you say we've weaponised incompetence.

Karen Stuart: 32:15

And.

Jenny Cole: 32:16

I think you probably remember what that was about, but do you remember and can you share what weaponising incompetence looks like?

Karen Stuart: 32:24

Yeah, that actually came from a conversation with one of my colleagues who's actually now acting in the position that I was previously and she's actually now, um, acting in the position that I was previously and she's fantastic um. But we we talk when I was in confidence is basically like using something that you're not so good at as a reason for not going and doing something else. So I can't do the dishes because I don't know how to do that. Oh, I'm really rubbish at cooking, so I can't do that. So using that as a as a way of getting out of things you don't want to do it's not necessarily that you're incompetent about it, but you used it like oh I'm really rubbish at maths, so I'm gonna.

Jenny Cole: 32:57

You know, I'm not gonna be able to do that. Yeah, exactly, I now remember the context. It was a particular staff member who couldn't do something because they, you know, and and had weaponized their incompetence thank you for sharing that with me, that's okay. Any final thoughts? Is there anything that you've not shared, that you'd like, that we've not talked about, that you'd like to share before we sign off? I think?

Karen Stuart: 33:22

I guess for me, just in terms of like middle leadership, it's the most important thing is just really getting to understand who you are as a leader and what your values are, and making sure that that's what drives your decisions as well, and not being influenced by what other people think or what their perceptions of who should be doing this job and how they should be doing that. I think as long as you're true to what your values and your purpose are, then that's the most important part of being a leader.

Jenny Cole: 33:52

That's beautiful advice, and so we shall leave it there. Karen Stuart, it was an absolute pleasure to have you on Positively Leading today, and I wish you all the very best in your new role and look forward to talking to you about it again soon.