Leading Culturally Safe Schools with Rosie Paine

Jenny Cole: 1:02

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. Thank you for joining me today. I'm Jenny Cole, and one of the things that I love about social media is that you get to stalk people, in a good way. You get to follow really interesting people, and my guest today has been on my radar for about four years, and so I'm delighted to finally have a conversation with Rosie Paine. Welcome, Rosie.

Rosie Paine: 1:27

Thank you, it's nice to be here.

Jenny Cole: 1:30

Rosie is a proud Yultha Noongar Yamachi woman. She's a mum. She's an accomplished artist. She was Teacher of the Year in 2001 and is currently the Deputy of a primary school south of Perth. Rosie, before we delve into your leadership journey, I'd love to know a little bit more about where you're from and, for those of you who don't understand, what is a Yulthi Noongar Yamitji woman?

Rosie Paine: 1:57

Yeah, jenny. So I was born on Noongar Boodja, in Midland actually, and my mum is a Noongar Yamitji woman, which means that, well, she grew up in Pinchley and she has connections to Carnarvon as well, which is the Yamadji side, and my dad is a Yilka Wongatha man. So his dad comes from Kalgoorlie and his mum comes from a small community called Cosmonubri, which is where I grew up as a young child as well. So those are the four parts of my cultural identity and that's really important to me.

Jenny Cole: 2:28

Absolutely, and you've got the southwest of Western Australia pretty well covered in that. Yes, what drew you to education?

Rosie Paine: 2:38

So it's quite a funny story actually, because I should start by saying I'm an early childhood teacher and that's what I trained in, but I actually didn't attend any kindergarten or pre-primary. It's just funny because I've spent most of my career as a kindergarten teacher. So I grew up in a small community called Cosmo Newbury it's about 1,000 kilometres northeast of Perth on the edge of the Great Sandy Desert and education for me was something that from the beginning I learned from my elders and my family on country. So that was the education that I received to begin with. My auntie was my first teacher. She taught us in one of the abandoned mission houses there, my cousins and I, and so I learned that learning and education came in so many different forms. When we started to go to a formal school I realised the difference between that learning and a more formal education.

Rosie Paine: 3:30

But I've been lucky throughout the years to have some really wonderful teachers to sort of guide me and also to instil in me that my cultural identity is really important and that's a strength that I bring. But they also have advocated for me and shown me a path and how education can really change the world, and so that really excited me from a very, very young age and I think that one of the things that my dad said to me which was really important about education because neither of my parents finished high school was that to sort of have that conversation with people about the importance of Aboriginal histories and culture and to sort of talk about the importance of reconciliation, you need to be in the same field as other people. So that was a really important message that he passed on to myself and my brother and sister.

Jenny Cole: 4:16

That's amazing that someone who literally did not have kindergarten as we know it managed to get all the way through the education system and start teaching in early childhood. When did you know you were going to be a teacher?

Rosie Paine: 4:31

I think pretty early on. I mean, you know, I was inspired by my mum in terms of she was a nurse, and so I always thought, okay, I really want to be in a space where I'm helping people. So it was either teaching or nursing was the two things that really stayed in my mind and I thought, you know, I couldn't stand um blood and that too much. So I thought education was what I wanted to go into and I really the thing about education I saw really early on was how much it can help people to grow. So from a very young age, I thought education was something that I wanted to be involved in. Yeah, because of the opportunities that it provides not only you but the people around you.

Jenny Cole: 5:09

Yeah, and so you've also taught in a large number of regional areas and a large number of schools, and so you would have taught under a lot of leaders. Talk to me about the good, the bad and the ugly. What did you notice about some leaders where you said I want to be like that, and others where you think, if I ever get to your position, I'm never going to be like that?

Rosie Paine: 5:33

Yeah.

Rosie Paine: 5:33

So look, I'll start with the ones that I think that I have taken those lessons and thought, ok, actually that's not the kind of leadership skills and qualities that I want to have, and I think the first thing is related to my cultural identity have.

Rosie Paine: 5:47

And I think the first thing is related to my cultural identity and that is that those that I felt I don't really want to, you know, have those traits, is those people that didn't make me feel culturally safe in the space that I was working in and that might have been unconsciously or consciously, but the leaders where that really wasn't an important part of the work that they did.

Rosie Paine: 6:05

So I think the people that I've really sort of leant towards in terms of their leadership qualities are those people that take into account all those things into how they interact with people and build relationships, and where I can see myself valued and reflected as an Aboriginal woman are places that I feel I have, are able to succeed in, and I think that reflects back to kids as well, in terms of if kids can see themselves reflected in the people that are standing in front of them and that's really important, or that those people are really advocating for them and a path forward for them.

Rosie Paine: 6:39

So you know, that's the kind of leader that I want to be and the leaders that I've had that I have worked with, that I've really admired, and the leaders that I've had that I have worked with, that I've really admired, and those people that are strategically putting things in place to help sustain that. I think it's really easy to say that you have these intentions, but when you put in place strategic actions to help keep that kind of work sustainable and progressing, that's the difference.

Jenny Cole: 7:04

Tell me what that might look like in a school, one of those strategic things to sort of maintain those culturally responsive schools what might that look like?

Rosie Paine: 7:19

Yeah, so one of the sort of the simplest things that I've seen that have been done is, you know, we are really in that space now where acknowledgements of country are really important in terms of events and things within the school, and so one of the places where I've seen that that works the best is the school that I'm at now and we have our students doing an acknowledgement, aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, at all our assemblies and all our events. We worked with a Noongar person and a Noongar lady who helped us write an acknowledgement of country to fit the local context in Noongar language and we've taught the kids that. So our kids are getting up Aboriginal, non-aboriginal. For the four years that we have been open and speaking in language. Now we had an assembly yesterday and the student leaders that got up to say the Acknowledgement their Noongar language that they spoke was almost fluent. It was absolutely amazing and they don't, they don't skip a beat. So they they know that it's important that they do that.

Rosie Paine: 8:12

Um, and they use Noongar language throughout the day. When they pass me, they say kaya, which means hello. It's just a part of the work that we do and so they understand, okay, every event that we have. We need to have an acknowledgement. How are we going to say it? We're going to say it this way and they say it with pride, so that's sustainable. And you know, I um, last term I had some time in central office and even that time term that I was out, those things were still happening. Yeah, yeah, um. So in the, in the void of having an aboriginal person on the staff, they were still doing that. The other deputy that I work alongside who's non-Aboriginal? Whenever we have a new visitor coming to the school, she welcomes them with language. So I think that when people make that sort of the fabric of the school, even in the small things that you can sustain, that's really important when you can put in place those things that you can do all the time and they reflect that cultural responsiveness.

Jenny Cole: 9:08

I just love that. About 25 years ago I was at a conference in New Zealand and I was blown away by how they spoke in language. And it didn't matter, everybody knew it and they said it and I'm like, oh goodness, wouldn't this be wonderful? And then I was around when we were doing it in a sort of token fashion, and it is just so lovely now when I go into schools and I hear kids speaking in language, because, you're right, it's such a little thing to do, but you know, it says we're here and we matter and it absolutely warms my heart.

Jenny Cole: 9:47

So I'm so thrilled that that's happening in your school you sort of mentioned and it and it crossed my mind that sometimes the Aboriginal staff member in a school and sometimes it is only one or two is the person responsible for NAIDOC Day or for writing the Aboriginal cultural standards. You know, integration stuff. What can leaders do more of to make sure that that load is spread across the school? Any tips or tricks for that?

Rosie Paine: 10:21

Yeah, I think that you know, first and foremost, you kind of need to ensure that staff have an understanding that's a really important priority of the school. So you know, having it written in your business plan and how it's, how it spreads across all the areas, and so you know it could be in the relationships it could be an important part of okay, you need to really make sure that you're building those connections with the aboriginal community. We have time set apart for you to have some cultural learning or Aboriginal cultural appreciation. That when you are doing your plans and your programs, that there's that lens put over what you're doing in terms of Aboriginal histories and languages, that you're using local context. So I'm always encouraging our staff that when you are doing anything to do with Aboriginal histories and cultures, look at our local community first. So we are on Noongar land Using resources from, you know, new South Wales or Queensland doesn't necessarily fit in our context.

Rosie Paine: 11:18

So it's just making sure that there's this common message across the school, whether it's strategically or in the interactions that you have with your staff, that this is an important part of how we run our school, that cultural responsiveness is essential. So you can have those strategic things but you can also impart that sense of moral purpose about the work, and I think that's the difference between when you can tell people are doing that as a tokenistic gesture or whether they really believe it themselves. Because when I hear leaders that are non-Aboriginal speak about how they want to embed cultural responsiveness, you can see in their eyes that their ultimate goal is for reconciliation.

Jenny Cole: 11:55

Yes, you can tell when it's real, can't you? Yes, and, as you said earlier, you see that in people's actions, not necessarily in their words.

Rosie Paine: 12:05

And I think you know our department has, in the last few years or so, even more, really made that a priority, and one of the things that I think that's been great recently is that leaders are able to take part in a culturally responsive leadership program where they go on country, they learn from others, they get to question what they have been learnt, maybe unlearn, relearn some things. So it's a bit of a journey for them as leaders, in terms of not just their professional space but how they've personally brought um what they, what they believe, into that space, because that's really important, because what we're doing in that space is we're not we're delivering part of a curriculum, but we're also it's, it's social impact movement. So we essentially need to be driving that with more than just our heads. We need to be driving that with our hearts, and so making people aware of where they're maybe they're on unconscious bias sits is really part of being a leader. To say, okay, maybe there's some things that I need to unpack before I can really drive this as something in my school.

Jenny Cole: 13:09

Yes, because those things that we absorb as children and in our first experiences they're very hard to get rid of. Some of those unconscious biases are well and truly there. That became really. I'm going to tell a little personal story. I was in Albany last week and I went to the Anzac Memorial, which is a beautiful museum, and you get given a card of a digger and you follow their story around and I was given the card of an Aboriginal man from New South Wales and so when he was sent to war he wasn't even a citizen, he couldn't vote, but he was sent off to war to fight for our country.

Jenny Cole: 15:59

And I was really struck by the irony that when we're talking about those horrible atrocities, you know, that were wrought against each other, we say lest we forget. Yet when we talk about the atrocities against the Aboriginal people across Australia, we say get over it, you know that was years ago. And so that tiny little thing that says this is more valuable than that. You know, this you need to. We mustn't forget this because it's really important versus oh well, that was years ago, let's just get on with it. That sort of stuff is inside us for many of us. And so that brings me to the point. Really, what does reconciliation mean for you and what can schools and leaders do about that?

Rosie Paine: 16:45

Yeah, I think you know, for me, reconciliation is understanding that the land on which we live on has been occupied and has stories and histories before we were here, and that's the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people of our country, and so that understanding and that appreciation is really important and that we're able to see that those are strengths that we have and that we need to make sure that we are essentially closing the gap for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. That's a really important part of it, because we know there are gaps in education, in life expectancy, all those things, and you know, I could say that I feel that than most people, because I'm a woman as well. Yeah, that intersectionality, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that you know we talk about equity and equality and really, what is it that we can do for every single person that we come across that allows them to achieve a success as the person that they are? And so, for me, a success as the person that they are. And so, for me, reconciliation is being able to feel like my children, in particular, and myself can achieve success and that we don't encounter racism.

Rosie Paine: 18:00

And you know, unfortunately and you might have seen this on my social media posts recently.

Rosie Paine: 18:05

My daughter and I had an experience recently where we were met with racism being called a derogatory term, and that's the first time that I've heard that for a very, very long time, and that sort of tone has been a bit more, I suppose, visible since we had the referendum, and I think that's a reflection of the fact that that caused us to consider where we stand with reconciliation at this point in time and really caused people to okay, you actually need to put on a piece of paper now if you want a voice and, in turn, if you want this reconciliation to commence, and so those people that were sitting on the fence were actually made to then make a decision.

Rosie Paine: 18:50

So we have, then, created a bit of a um divide in terms of, okay, where we all sit, and the conversations that we had around that time and now, um, you know, are becoming hopefully more courageous about what we do, and, and people who are allies are being called in now to really say how they feel about it and have those courageous conversations with people that don't think that there's a space for that in our society.

Jenny Cole: 19:20

I saw that post of yours when you said that in a public place, you were called a very derogatory racist name, were called a very derogatory racist name and I, honestly, was so gobsmacked and so overwhelmed that I didn't respond, because I knew that I would be either angry or upset, and both of those involved swear words which I tend not to put on social media.

Jenny Cole: 19:42

First of all, I'm really sorry that that happened to you and your daughter, and I know, as a privileged white woman who cares really deeply about this, about social justice full stop that sometimes I feel like I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So, for the educators out there and not necessarily in the circumstance you found yourself in what is it that they can do? In that situation? I would have felt like I couldn't have said anything, because then perhaps I would have been in danger. But you're right, there's allies, so share with me. Is there something that we should be doing more of or less of, or differently?

Rosie Paine: 20:21

I think, you know, as educators in schools we have a really we don't understand that we can actually embed such cultural safety in the Aboriginal students that we have, that they have that confidence to be able to speak for themselves and advocate for themselves, and so that's a really important part. I've seen in our school the cultural safety that's been built for Aboriginal students and how they've really grown in their confidence and their ability to engage. And so we have, you know, an Aboriginal student that's one of our student leaders this year and the pride he gets when he does an Acknowledgement of Country or he's now taking up Noongar dancing outside of school because he's built in his confidence in terms of his cultural identity and I've seen that in the other students as well. And so in our schools, if we build a place where our Aboriginal students feel culturally safe, feel that who they are is valued, they grow into adults that are much more confident in terms of advocating for themselves in that space and, as allies, teaching our non-Aboriginal students that Aboriginal people come with the strength and, if we see this racism, that we have the opportunity to have those courageous conversations with people where we can and tackle racism. And in that situation that I spoke about on social media.

Rosie Paine: 21:41

As you said, that's probably not the right time to say, look, you shouldn't be saying that, because it was a very sensitive sort of time. I had my daughter there and you know I didn't you know she didn't even know what the word meant, that they were calling us. But in spaces where you can have those conversations with people and say, look, what you've said, you've really impacted someone's cultural safety. That was not something that you should be calling people. That's really important. So we have this responsibility to build up the Aboriginal students that we have in our schools with their sense of cultural safety and identity and, for our non-Aboriginal students, let them know and understand and appreciate Aboriginal people and cultures and histories. So that's something that we can do.

Rosie Paine: 22:27

That was never done in previous generations, and so it's amazing that we have these children now in our schools that are having this conversation with their parents their grandparents about how amazing Aboriginal people are and the histories and cultures that they have and that they so easily speak, are learning to speak another language and learn another way of being that it's not any different to them. I have kids running up to me all the time. They're excited to tell me about something that they've learned or to do with Noongar culture and sharing it with me because they want to say look, I'm really proud to know this.

Jenny Cole: 23:03

Because children aren't inherently racist. They learn that, and I also think that fundamentally, as human beings, we just want to belong and we can't have two lots of belonging. You know you can't belong to the dominant culture and well you can, but you know you want to feel safe, that we all belong, um, and I think that's what safety is yeah yeah, and I and you know one of the things that I talk about with all our kids is it.

Rosie Paine: 23:28

We all want to belong, we all want to have that connection, and we do know one of the things that I talk about with all our kids is that we all want to belong.

Rosie Paine: 23:32

We all want to have that connection and we do. And we start with the country that we're on. I talk to kids about the importance of let's all look after it together. You know so, let's all look after it together because we're all living on it and we have a responsibility to preserve it for the future generation. And so, you know, I say to them you know, this is our butcher, this is our country. We need to all look after it and we can all learn about it and it's a part of all of us.

Jenny Cole: 23:55

Yeah, yeah, and giving it names, like you know, being able to give the language to it we know is really important with just about everything. If you can't speak it, you can't label it, you can't name it, you can't talk about it. So that's, that's so important. Um julia gillard, in her podcast, which is called a podcast of one's own um, she asks her guests about the first time they realized they were treated differently because they were a woman. You can answer that if you want, but I want to talk about the first time you realize you were treated differently because of the color of your skin or the fact that you're Aboriginal, or both, because, as we said before, there's an intersection of potential discrimination. I'm curious when were you the first time did you realise you were treated differently?

Rosie Paine: 24:43

Yeah, there's a few different instances of that. So the first time that I noticed the way in which I was brought up was different to the way and other people had an understanding was when we moved out of the community that I'm from into our nearest town to go to a formal school, and I think it was midway through year one and I went into the classroom and I didn't have an understanding that you had to put your hand up if you wanted to do something or to go to the toilet or any of that sort of stuff. So I was calling out to the, to the teacher, saying miss, miss, you know I need to go to the toilet. She was ignoring me. She was telling me that you know, put your hand up, put your hand up, put your hand up. And I really had no understanding of that. I ended up weighing, urinating myself in the chair, um, and so that for me that's, you know, as a 40 year old woman that still sits with me now, I think, oh, you, that's, you know, as a 40-year-old woman that still sits with me now I think, oh, you know, that's the first time that I noticed that I was different, that the way I was brought up was different and that there were a different set of rules that I needed to learn to continue to, you know, live and achieve, and so that was the first time that I noticed that and that still sits as a core memory for me.

Rosie Paine: 25:50

I think the first time that I noticed that and that still sits as a core memory for me, I think the other time that I knew that I was different was when I actually moved away to go and do Year 11 and 12 in a wheat belt town and I was one of the only Aboriginal students in the class, and so conversations would come up about, and at that time it was a lot of conversation about Native Title and a lot of different movements that were happening, and there was a lot of anger that I saw in people, and then some of that was directed at me indirectly. Well, because I was an Aboriginal person. So you know, I felt different in that space, and it was the first time really that I heard any of those derogatory terms used for Aboriginal people, and so that was really hard for me, as you can imagine, being a teenager, just you know, I'm hearing those things. And then I suppose, when I went to university, there's a similar thing and then when I went into the teaching profession for the first time so it's always been at points where I've had I've had to see that the rules of how you work in that space are different, that I need to learn a new whole set of rules to achieve in that space. So my example of going to uni is that you know, because I didn't speak English first, the way in which I wrote my essays, the grammar was completely different, so I had to relearn how to do that. So that was difficult was completely different, so I had to relearn how to do that, so that was difficult.

Rosie Paine: 27:13

But I think there's been a lot of different occasions over the years when I walk into a new space where then I need to reassess where I'm at and I notice that as a woman or as an Aboriginal woman, that I'm different and I've had many conversations, and much more courageously as I've gotten older and as I've gotten into this space of being a deputy principal, that I've had many conversations and much more courageously as I've gotten older and as I've gotten into this space of being a deputy principal that I've had to really face those head on with people about what it is that my capacity is as an Aboriginal person and as a woman, that you know we can and I can achieve anything, and you know for a long time that took me, having to try to believe that myself, but I've seen some amazing women leaders and some amazing Aboriginal leaders and Aboriginal women leaders, and so I think that whole thing of and it was a NAIDOC thing quite a while ago because of her again, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosie Paine: 28:10

Seeing women in that space is amazing and and that's where I draw my strength from and I'm hopefully doing that for other people yes, yes yeah, and so you know, for a long time it was just seeing women break down barriers, but then now, seeing Aboriginal people and Aboriginal women break down barriers, that's really, really important. But you know what it's like, jenny? We're still finding those things every day. We still have to have those conversations with people, we still need to break down those barriers, we still need to walk into a space where people aren't expecting us to be in and have those conversations, and so I think we're still going to be doing that for a while, but we're building up, um a much stronger base of people who understand that's important, not just as women, but, yeah, those people that are walking alongside us who aren't women, that um see that that's important as well.

Jenny Cole: 29:02

So yeah, you're right. It just feels like sometimes they're so far to go, but then I remember how, you know, you can actually look back at things that think, okay, we have achieved something. So one of the people that I admire greatly possibly one of the only men that I admire as well as much as I do is Kevin O'Keefe, who was in our Department of Education and when we were bringing the new curriculum in, I was advocating for kids with disabilities. He was advocating, obviously, for children who are Aboriginal, and I just remember him saying Jen, it needs to be built in, not bolted on, and and and I think I look now at the curriculum and we've got, you know, foundation level, where, which means a lot of kids can now enter as learners. And we've got, you know, foundation level, which means a lot of kids can now enter as learners. And we've got Aboriginal cultural standards. Now, none of it's perfect yet, but it's at least built in. Who are some of your mentors over the time? Some of the people that you admire?

Rosie Paine: 30:04

yes, so, um, you know, I was very lucky in the sense that when I, when I was um growing up in the aboriginal community, you know, in terms of that educational space, one of the first principals that we had out there in the school that was that was actually built was verna boss, who is an aboriginal, uh, woman, who you know I was like, wow, an aboriginal woman, that's a principal, that's. You know, that was absolutely amazing. And then, when I became a teacher, my first placement was in norseman and one of the deputy principals there, kathy schultz, kathy jetta, was the deputy principal and she is a noongar woman. Um, so that was amazing as well. And you know, along the way there's been people like paulina moplop, um, who I worked with, who was the director of ab Education, an absolutely amazing leader. But then there's been other people in that space, as you said, like Kevin, who I've seen, who has for many, many years had to have those courageous conversations and, you know, break down those barriers. And you know, I suppose in this modern world of educational leadership as well, there's amazing people that I have met and worked alongside.

Rosie Paine: 31:12

Amanda McGovern, yeah, she's one of the people that has been a very strong ally of myself for a very long time, from when I first met her and advocated for me in terms of my space as an Aboriginal woman as well. Stephanie McDonald at the Leadership Institute as well has done the same. There's been amazing people I mean one of the things as well. Stephanie McDonald at the Leadership Institute as well, has done the same. There's been amazing people I mean one of the things as well is our own Director General, lisa Rogers. She's one of those people that has really inspired me and I've sat down a couple of times with her and had conversations and she said to me that she believes that I can do anything that I set my mind to and has really given me opportunities to be able to do that. I mean last term, I spent a term out of my school because she offered me an opportunity to go into the central office to experience all the different business areas.

Rosie Paine: 31:59

Oh wow, yes, so I spent a week at each different business area to learn a bit more about it, to see my lens and my space, and having that term in there has really opened my eyes in terms of what I'm able to do.

Rosie Paine: 32:12

So that was a really amazing professional development opportunity that she had given me, and the first week of that I spent shadowing her. It was amazing because as she was making decisions and in meetings and other things, she turned to me and sort of talked me through the thought process that she had at that time and why this was happening and what was, you know, and that was amazing. And to be given that kind of mentorship is invaluable and that really speaks volumes to me in terms of how much she is advocating for women, but also for Aboriginal people, to be in that space, and I think that I can't speak highly enough of the opportunity that she's given be in that space, and I think that I can't speak highly enough of the opportunity that she's given me in that space and for someone to say something but then actually do it.

Jenny Cole: 32:55

That's too good.

Rosie Paine: 32:56

And so yeah, that was pretty amazing.

Jenny Cole: 32:58

That's phenomenal, and so in some of my work I talk about mentors, sponsors, networks. So a sponsor is someone who's going to put you forward, and so it sounds in that case she was both mentoring you well, you know, allowing you to see all of those business units, but then putting you forward. You know, this is the face of somebody who's got potential to go a great deal further.

Rosie Paine: 33:22

that's what a wonderful opportunity it was amazing and actually validated for me that there are a lot of people out there that are advocating and that are allies, because every business area that I went into, people were giving up their time and their energy to really talk me through things and, you know, walk me through and make me feel really welcome. So I felt like wow, and they were asking me questions about what I think that they could put into the work they do that would be more culturally responsive, and so I felt I felt pretty special. I felt like I was able to give advice on these things that I'd never been asked to do before at a system level. So I suppose that's my next big, big goal.

Jenny Cole: 34:02

I was gonna say have we got Rosie for the Director General?

Rosie Paine: 34:06

No, not yet. I've got my two kids and I've got my art that I do as well. I'm a pretty, pretty busy person and, and in my role as a deputy, I feel like there's still a lot more that I can learn and want to learn, and so that's really that's still really exciting for me. Where I can have the opportunity to influence system is when I'm asked for advice or to consult on things, but I'm pretty happy where I'm at at the moment but it's just nice to be able to see you know, it's that thing.

Jenny Cole: 34:38

If you can't see it, you can't be it. And so if you can't see what all of those places are doing and seeing those other opportunities there there's, you know, you can't see where the possibilities lie. I am team Rosie for DJ, but you mentioned your art and I was going to talk to you about that. You are a very busy person, a mum, an artist. You know being a deputy is busy enough. How do you balance? Not that there is such a thing, but how do you look after your own wellbeing?

Rosie Paine: 35:09

So my art is a really big part of that well-being. Um, it's a wonderful connection to my culture. It's sort of when I sit down and I um put, you know, paint on that canvas, it really connects me to my country, it connects me to my family, it's that of peace. So it is a nice balance for me. You know, one of the things, though, that really helps me to achieve all those things is I have an amazing, amazing husband.

Rosie Paine: 35:35

When we're talking about you know allies before, he's probably one of my biggest because he makes space for me in terms of being able to do that.

Rosie Paine: 35:45

You know, he's off cooking dinner every night, doing the washing, doing all that stuff when I'm painting, or you know off to meetings and things like that, and he's always made me feel like I could achieve anything that I put my mind to.

Rosie Paine: 36:01

And so you know he's one of those people that are an ally for women, because I've not only seen it in my life in the way he supports me, but in the way he supports other women as well, in terms of being an advocate for them and the voice and the space that they have.

Rosie Paine: 36:14

So that's really amazing.

Rosie Paine: 36:16

I think you know what gives me that balance is understanding my own sense of wellbeing and how important that is, because you can see when it impacts the work that you do if you haven't got a great sense of well-being, and I think that that's really important, and so I need to know when to leave it at work and be at home and be present with my family, and I learned that from other people that I've worked with.

Rosie Paine: 36:41

So the other deputy that I worked with really mentored me in the early stages of being a deputy and really instilled in me that sense of well-being and leaving it at school and taking what you need to at home. That way you can do your job in all spaces better, and it's wonderful to see that that's a greater push across the whole profession at the moment, that that sense of well-being is really important, because not only for leaders but for all educators, the demand is increasing in terms of what we find ourselves in, in terms of our workload, in terms of students that are presenting to us with much more challenging behaviours or neurodiversity. So schools are becoming a lot more complex and we are having to accommodate for that and that's an amazing amount of pressure on our sense of wellbeing.

Jenny Cole: 37:35

Yeah, you're absolutely right, schools are extraordinarily complex. But you mentioned before Steph McDonald. Steph always says you put yourself first, because if you're not okay, your family's not okay. If your family's not okay, if your family's not okay, you can't teach well or lead well. I think it's such good advice and, and what you said about boundaries having some boundaries around work is that at work and at home, you get to be present.

Rosie Paine: 38:00

I think that's um always a good place to start, if nothing else definitely, and you know, um being married to a fellow educator, that was something that we put in place pretty early. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Rosie Paine: 38:11

So you know we're pretty much like okay, this is, we leave work at work good because you know you don't want to be talking shop outside too much of the time because, um, you know you've got to enjoy the moments that you, you do. You don't want to be talking about school all the time, even though you're passionate about it. There's got to be a line, and so you do, as you said, crack these boundaries to ensure that your wellbeing and your family's wellbeing is centre, and you know what Steph said is you can't say it any better, really.

Jenny Cole: 38:39

That's awesome advice. You know, lay work at work and look after yourself. Generally advice for leaders or aspiring or new leaders in schools. If you could give a couple of pieces of advice, either about trying to make schools culturally safe or just generally, what might you say?

Rosie Paine: 38:58

I think the first thing is is really about building your networks, because I think all the way through my career, one of the biggest strengths that I've, um, you know to help support me, and what I want to do is building those networks. So having people that you can ask for advice, who will, uh, speak highly of you in a room, that, when you're not even in there, who advocate for you, um, who you can bounce ideas off, is important, and those networks throughout my career have been amazing, even not just professionally, but personally, so that's huge. One of the other things is you know, if you don't know something you know, ask people, seek that information out and build your skills and your knowledge in areas that you think you don't know enough about, because I think that's really important being an educator in this space, being a leader in this space. You can't stop learning. You've got to keep learning. That's the only way that you can be better. The wellbeing part is a really important part of that.

Rosie Paine: 39:58

In terms of cultural responsiveness, I think the biggest thing is for people to learn more about the country that they're on, the local area that they're in, build those relationships with Aboriginal people in terms of the country that they're on the local area that they're in. Build those relationships with Aboriginal people in terms of the community that you're in and if you don't know how to identify where those people are, building networks with people that you do know that you can reach out to and social media is great for that in terms of linking you with people that are working in this space and there's a lot more Aboriginal service providers out there that you can link into. So I think that's really important. So the relationships you have with those Aboriginal communities but also really be brave and have those courageous conversations with people is really important.

Rosie Paine: 40:42

Challenge people who think that this isn't important work. Make it strategic, put it into your business plans and the work that you're doing so that it's sustainable, and really find some way to embed it into a moral purpose, into your heart and how you connect with that, into how important that work is. You know, and if you are struggling with that, you know I'm happy to have a conversation with you about that, and I mean that genuinely, because I think the important thing is if you can see it through someone else's lens, um, if I can talk to you or another aboriginal person can talk to you about our experiences and how valued we feel when that work is being done. Um, if you can't get that anywhere else, you need to see it from from that side of people to let you know that what you're doing, if you're advocating and pushing for cultural responsiveness, is going to impact not only us but future generations.

Jenny Cole: 41:35

Yeah, yeah, that is the most perfect way to end. I often ask people to tell me about a book or some professional learning, but I think what you've just said is reach out to an Aboriginal person or to somebody who can support you with that. I hope people take that opportunity, and I love the idea about networks. I bang on about that all the time. This is a team sport. You can't do this on your own. I have thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation and I'm going to make sure that your social media links that you've shared with me your LinkedIn and elsewhere are down, so if people do want to reach out to you or follow you, they can do so if they want to buy your beautiful art.

Jenny Cole: 42:16

I would encourage them to do that as well. Thank you so much, Rosie. For those people who are listening, if you loved this podcast as much as I did, please rate and review so that other people can see it and share it with your networks.